Thread: CHICANO - Why are you here?

Chicano,

Lets say we grant Amnesty for 20 Million Illegal Immigrants, what do you think would happen to this country, i wanna hear your viewpoint, im all ears!

chicano,

Sometimes I realize that you make good points, and other times not at all.

I always make good points, you just don't appreciate them. Yea, CrocketG is my bud and he's working a number on you.

You are a troll. You have wholeheartedly earned that title.

Are you a sinner? I don't know your heart. Also, I really don't like you implying that I have condemned you, since I didn't. "Judge not lest ye be judged". All I can do for you is point out scripture and hope you listen. Your soul is in your hands. I'm not going to let you play victim and cry that I have labeled you evil incarnate by calling you a sinner, which I have not. I'm guilty of preaching to you and ministering the gospel.

Also, I want to clarify somethings. I told you the Commandments that I believed the illegal aliens are breaking and that you shouldn't stand too close to them in a thunderstorm. I also told you that you needed to consult the Lord about your actions and find peace in your heart. I did not imply that you needed to confess sin. Instead, I suggested that you seek divine guidance. Big difference.

I've never called you ignorant either so this is just more self victimization.

I was born in Chicago Illinois so I am a citizen, not illegal.
My parents are permanent residents, not criminals.

Are you an anchor baby and is that the reason your parents currently have resident status? Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

I just like to see what rational people use in their arguments against illegal immigration..

It all goes back to one thing. The one thing that started this whole mess, this whole conversation, this whole reaction.... the root of it all. More than 12 million people have broken our laws by crossing our border without permission. It all goes back to those people. They have caused all of this, every stinking bit of it.

These criminal actions have turned into one big pity party(chicano you are a party goer), which was self inflicted by the wrong doers, which are playing the blame game and are wallowing in self victimization. I'm not bearing any guilt because the blame is not on me, not on their country, not on my country, not on the lawmakers, not on the laws...., instead, it all goes back to the wrong doers themselves, which are the people that crossed the border illegally. So what ever happens to them, happens to them and they need to zip it and deal with it because they created this whole mess and they need to face what happens to them as a result of their poor judgment and actions.

Lot, stock and barrel, they need to own it. One thing they will most likely never get from the American public is respect because of their blatant indiscression, attitude, sense of entitlement and whining. Do they really want to live here, after they have created such an environment? They are reaping what they have sewn.

Don't drive into a brick wall and blame the wall, the person that built it, the auto manufacture, the land owner, the insurance company...because the only person to blame is the person that put their foot on the gas and deliberately and knowingly crashed into it.

Dixie

First off Thank you CG for your well stated debate of the issue. Second this country is great because of our laws, Because of our pride and because we believe in what is right and wrong and know the difference. In WWII the Germans and Japanese thought we were soft. In WWI it was said we could never win. The battle field has changed but believe me we are not soft. When ICE starts rounding up the Illegals you will see no more marching in the streets, no more waving the flags of foreign countries, You will see no more demonstrations what you will see is a lot of hiding just like they do in there own countries. Mass deportation won’t be necessary as when the going gets tough… well we all know from how they act in there own countries.
Next I believe it was said we are great because of all the immigrants illegal or not. I have to agree with part of that statement. The immigrants that came here at the turn of the centaury were different. They appreciated the opportunity, they did there very best to assimilate into the American way of life. They learned English and spoke it, They denounced the country they immigrated from and upheld the honor of the United States. They more then anything else wanted to make this country great and to work as one united force and not make it part of the country they just fled. They did not come here to rape her and split her into pieces.
Next don’t even try the religion thing with me. I spent eight years in a Catholic school. Religion has killed more people in wars then you can ever dream of. Just look at history.
My family has a military back ground. My brother fought in VN, My dad was a tail gunner in a B-52, my oldest son is serving now. I choose college because there was no conflict in my time or I would have enlisted and almost did anyway. My family has paid the price. We follow the law, all of them.
In closing maybe if the Illegals that SNUCK, LIED, and CHEATED there way here had any dignity and strive to learn the language and assimilate into society we might not be having this conversation. Instead they are trying to make this great land into the (EDIT) hole they just RAN from. By living like third world citizens living 7 families to a house, Peeing in there front yards, playing loud music and drinking all night with total disregard of their neighbors. Then you get poor me “Gee I just don’t understand why they don’t like us”. Like it was said I will call it like it is, The law is the law, If you break it be prepaid to pay the price and currently that is deportation. There is no anchor baby rule that I have seen that says the parents cannot be deported. It was not my choice to break the law it was there’s you will find no sympathy here. The first amnesty was a mistake and if it happens again it will be a bigger mistake. Only a total fool tries the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

Chicano, no one, especially myself, ever called you a "sinner". Must be that guilty conciense again.

The same people that are against giving to the poor (in this country) and in favor of separting families are lecturing me in religion.

I am not against to giving to the poor, as long as my family has enough food and a place to live and electricity, which, at times, we struggle, so I have nothing to give. However, if I did give, it would be to the charity of my choice (not the governments), and I would make sure that charity did not support aiding and abeting criminals of ANY kind, and in any kind of situation.

If a family gets seperated when they eventually self-deport, well, that was their choice. Seems many of them do not mind leaving their families in their own countries while they are here earning money, they are seperated then, but no one squeeled about that. It is only when they have to leave the U.S., when they thought they had a foothold, do any of them start making baseless accussations of "tearing families apart" over it.

BTW Chicano, I know many poor people, doing far worse than many illegals, and they do not get half the help when they need it as illegals do and can (especially by the Latino charity groups in the Catholic Church), it is a fact, a sad one. Our own politically correct society thinks there is no such thing as a hungry American.

I am sure, Chicano, that there are many good Latino people, it is without a doubt. However, we are not here to discuss them, because they are most likely the ones who have obeyed the laws, asked permission, and continue to be contributors to America (one for instance is my husbands co-worker, has been here a long time, hard worker, nice guy, good kids, pays his bills, considerate to others etc...). We are here to discuss the illegals, their illegal status, their disinterest in assimilating and obeying our laws, and what to do about the predicament they have gotten us all into by coming here illegally, over-burdening our health care system, our schools and our social services.

Discuss this with us, discuss how to deal with 12 milliom law-breakers, and the impact THEY have had on our country. do not come here wanting to pick at the where's and why's of how "bad" we "anti-immigrant groups" are. Once you start that perverbial snowball, you might just get caught up in the avalanche!!

Originally Posted by MechEngineer

We are also a world governed by ECONOMIC law which demands a work force U.S. born citizens aren't simply pumping out. That is why, even w/ 12 million illegal immigrants currenty holding U.S. jobs, we still have one of the lowest unemployment rates in recent history.

Sorry all, but when I see the subjective use of 'statistics' I feel compelled to ring in here - following on earlier comments by MechEngineer, American_made, and JohnB2012. (Also, std. disclaimer - I'm a bit out of sequence...)

1. Not all the 12 million illegals (note: very conservative estimate) are all employed - the percentages of those actually working on the order of like 55%-60% of total. Someone else in the thread correctly pointed this out (I think it was JohnB2012 - thanks).

2. Re:..."Lowest unemployment"... actually, the method the US Dept. of Labor and Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) uses to estimate 'unemployment' are heavily biased in favor of underestimation of the true actual numbers. (Remember, the government typically underestimates the 'bad' news, and overestimates the 'good' news). Here's the basic run-down:

a). If you're not reporting to your local employment office you are not 'officially' "unemployed". You are something 'other'. Further, these stats. do not account for, nor account for very well, those in the practical category as 'underemployed' - those working, but with less than full time jobs, or jobs that don't pay well enough to support a family.

b). Yes, I do realize that the BLS does actual human phone interviewing to 'adjust' the estimated unemployment levels to bring them closer to reality.
Nevertheless, they are always biased toward underestimation even after the 'adjustment'.

c). The bottom line is - that if we were to apply the same statistical methods, definitions, etc. as, say, most Western European countries, well - surprise! - our 'real' unemployment levels are comparable with, or even exceed many European countries (circa around 8%-12% generally).


3. You are implying that the economy is unsustainable without the input/influx of persons - that is also highly questionable. In many ways, having a smaller or more predictable population can actually SAVE money and allows the overall economy to be run more efficiency. There are many countries of the world that are doing just fine having a near zero or only a modest population growth rate. Also, on the opposite end of the spectrum, are some of the world's most 'rapidly growing' countries (in terms of population) and are also some of the poorest.
Recall, that, an annual 4.0% PGR will yield a doubling time of 20 years. In the absence of near-ideal economic conditions, this can be a recipe for economic/demographic disaster which often leads to prolonged poverty, indebtedness, and a struggle to keep up with the most basic human needs.
Or, in other words, if you have a large segment of your population barely subsisting NOW, what makes you think doubling the number of people is going to make the problem get any better....? This is especially true when any one population cohort (a 'slice' of the overall population) is concentrated within basic groups - such as: too many youth, too many in 'old age', too few 'working age', etc. In short, the demographic aspect is a complex one and just 'adding more bodies' does not necessarily solve any problems - it could actually create many new ones!

Many countries in Africa, Latin America, and some in Central Asia still possess high PGR's. Most European nations, Australia/New Zealand, US, Canada, and a few others, etc. have modest PGR's which enable them to grow, but in a slower, more predictable way. China and India are both interesting cases whereby historically high PGR's have been counteracted by proactive governmental policies (some will say 'heavy-handed' ones). Some academics or economists attribute their recent economic advances at least in part to their efforts to limit pop. growth.


4. The original statement implies that having a large employed illegal part of the population is somehow related and/or the cause of alleged low US unemployment. Another interpretation could be that having ANY illegal aliens employed in the US actually drives 'native' unemployment up - as jobs acquired by illegals would remove one potential place a citizen could work.

5. While economics is definitely an important part, it is not the exclusive factor involved either. Cultural, legal, historic, and other factors play into the scenario as well. In fact, I would venture to guess that there are many folks here that would support limiting illegal immigration even if it did benefit the economy (even though, as most or all of us realize here, that illegals actually subtract from, rather than, add to, the economy at large).
I am one.

Suggested reading on the use of statistics to support or "prove" a point:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039331 ... e&n=283155
("How to Lie with Statistics" by Huff)

Excellent comments PhredE. To sum that up, like Y2K, if the US were to lose 13 million illegal aliens today, nothing will happen. Schools will still open again in the fall, people will still shop at Wal-Mart, McDonalds will still be serving hot coffee and life will go on.

Originally Posted by JohnB2012

Excellent comments PhredE. To sum that up, like Y2K, if the US were to lose 13 million illegal aliens today, nothing will happen. Schools will still open again in the fall, people will still shop at Wal-Mart, McDonalds will still be serving hot coffed and life will go on.

And we will all be much happier with less crime, lower taxes, smaller class sizes, hospitals that prosper and lower insurance rates. Gee I am sooo happy just dreaming what the results would be.

Originally Posted by JohnB2012

Excellent comments PhredE. To sum that up, like Y2K, if the US were to lose 13 million illegal aliens today, nothing will happen. Schools will still open again in the fall, people will still shop at Wal-Mart, McDonalds will still be serving hot coffed and life will go on.

No sirrry bobb! You fail to see the complexity of the 12 million people currently in the country. Okay, maybe no all are employed, but the majoriy are hold agricultural or factory jobs. What will happen when all those "cheap" worker bees suddenly get yanked from the workforce?? You think large coorporations would be willing to lose millions and millions of dollars in hiring unionized workers??? Noooo, you know what they'll do??? They'll take their factory and OUTSOURCE, losing all those supervisor, managerial positions which are held by AMERICANS. Basically adding to the unemployement.

Some of you really need to stop being so narrow minded about this issue. I understand both points well, and am in favor of slowing down illegal immigration into this country, but I'm also socially conscious of the BENEFITS & SETBACKS they bring to this country.

It's funny because many of you claim they get take up your children's school spaces. When in reality, there's a growing number of illegal immigrants currently owning homes, and PAYING for their children's education. And I'm sorry, like Chicano said above...if you lost your job or your child lost his/her space to an illegal immigrant...then wow, that's ummm....not good for you. Maybe you just weren't cut out for this competitive world. Maybe Darwinism is in effect here.

PhredE,

So you don't like my statistics huh? Maybe you just don't like any statistics stating a different opinion than yours. You claim they exhaggurate them, but when CNN polls and other dummy statistics that many like you pull up in favor of your cause...you guys are all cheering and happy! I wonder if any of you ever question the bias and/or scientific reliability in those polls.

Maybe you just weren't cut out for this competitive world. Maybe Darwinism is in effect here.

Maybe "this competitive world" is not cut out for people who do not want to win this race to the bottom and who value integrated communities, sustainable growth and frugality more that cheap imports, imperial power, and easy profits.

I do agree with you, though, that some people do not seem aware of the trade off, so it must be made explicit.