Thread: Dangerous Legislation - TREASON!

Thank you, Coto.

I've said this elsewhere, but let me reiterate.

Similarities:

Both take jobs from Americans.
Both lower salaries and career prospects for Americans.
Both involve complicity and/or negligence by companies and governmental departments.
Both cultures have contempt for us, but for different reasons.
Both cultures regard our well being as a form of ill-gotten gain such that they are within their rights to grab it from us.

Differences:
Illegals are just that, illegal.
Visa people may be illegal or not, but a twisting of the intent of the law and exploitation of loopholes is predominant.
Illegals take a lions share of the lower, working class jobs.
Visa people threaten the good paying white collar jobs we are supposed to aspire to.
Mexico uses primarily low tech means to infiltrate, India uses primarily high tech means.
India vastly outnumbers us, Mexico doesn't.

Now, I personally feel more endangered by India than Mexico, because I'm third generation IT. That perception may not be correct considering the posts on crime. I've heard from working class people who claim that they have been run off jobs and refused work because they didn't speak Spanish.

So, they're both a problem. I believe they are related problems in that both are motivated by harsh conditions at home, envy of us, and by seeing and seizing an opportunity. Sometimes people do things because they can, like a big kid extorting lunch money on the playground, and in both cases desperate people do desperate things and rapacious people do rapacious things, and cruel people say cruel things. I'm noting the similarity of the rhetoric from both camps: they seem to be cross-polinating each other with concepts. For example, I've heard from Indians that we stole this content, therefore it is all right for them to steal our jobs and reduce us to poverty.

Originally Posted by Coto

Hi Crockets Ghost,
I hear where you're coming from. Not to sound like a broke record; just wanta clarify - H-1Bs and L-1s are not immigrants, period.
Legal, yes.
Illegal, yes (those who overstay)
Partners in crime, Yes (those who are indentured)

But not immigrants.

So what are they? They're guest workers; they're job destroyers - take your pick.

May I recommend?

Those who overstay - deport.
Those who are here w/in their 6 yr visas - Repatriate back to their home countries.

They don't belong here, we need to get rid of em, and terminate these guest worker visa programs.

CrocketsGhost - I'm not trying to re-focus this website, and I'm not trying to trivalize what you posted; H-1Bs are doing an end run while the illegals are doing a frontal assualt. Intentionally or unintentionally, H-1Bs have joined with the illegals to destroy our society. Or, differently stated, H-1B lobby organizations have joined with the illegals' lobby organizations to recruit the congress into the destruction of our society. (with heavy CFR and Trilateral Commission involvement)

I will say this, Crocket'sGhost, the H-1Bs are not homicidal maniacs like the illegals. Destruction from the illegals comes from the bottom up; destruction from H-1Bs comes from top down. We're in the middle.

Kick it back, CrocketsGhost, I've got a headache and i don't know if I'm making sense or not. Besides, Betsy Ross writes more succinctly than I do.

Thanks/Coto

I know what H1Bs are, Coto. There are all sorts of legitimate workers here on visas who are not immigrants and have no more intention of becoming US citizens than I have of becoming a citizen of any of the number of other countries in which I have worked under a visa. Their services may be a blessing (as when they came over here in large numbers to shore up the Y2K problem) or a burden (as when they are used to drive down wages or displace American workers). My point is that the issue of work visas is not nearly so clear cut as is that of illegal aliens. Not only are work visas an essential element of many businesses as reciprocal arrangements (whereby Americans may work overseas as necessary) and stopgaps for talent shortages, they are part of the process by which the federal government exercises its delegated control over immigrants and foreign visitors. That being the case, we cannot debate whether there should be work visas, but only to what extent they should be allowed and what if any limits or quotas we want to put upon them.

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

Thank you, Coto.

I've said this elsewhere, but let me reiterate.

Similarities:

Both take jobs from Americans.
Both lower salaries and career prospects for Americans.
Both involve complicity and/or negligence by companies and governmental departments.
Both cultures have contempt for us, but for different reasons.
Both cultures regard our well being as a form of ill-gotten gain such that they are within their rights to grab it from us.

Differences:
Illegals are just that, illegal.
Visa people may be illegal or not, but a twisting of the intent of the law and exploitation of loopholes is predominant.
Illegals take a lions share of the lower, working class jobs.
Visa people threaten the good paying white collar jobs we are supposed to aspire to.
Mexico uses primarily low tech means to infiltrate, India uses primarily high tech means.
India vastly outnumbers us, Mexico doesn't.

Now, I personally feel more endangered by India than Mexico, because I'm third generation IT. That perception may not be correct considering the posts on crime. I've heard from working class people who claim that they have been run off jobs and refused work because they didn't speak Spanish.

So, they're both a problem. I believe they are related problems in that both are motivated by harsh conditions at home, envy of us, and by seeing and seizing an opportunity. Sometimes people do things because they can, like a big kid extorting lunch money on the playground, and in both cases desperate people do desperate things and rapacious people do rapacious things, and cruel people say cruel things. I'm noting the similarity of the rhetoric from both camps: they seem to be cross-polinating each other with concepts. For example, I've heard from Indians that we stole this content, therefore it is all right for them to steal our jobs and reduce us to poverty.

Do you have a right to a job? I submit that you do not have a right to a job in a free society, and that the idea of entitlement, whether to benefits, employment, or anything else is a symptom of the runaway socialism that is destroying this nation.

Do you imagine that forefathers who tamed the continent worried about whether they had employment with this or that corporation or private business? Indeed they did not. I suggest that if you do not like the hiring practices of a given corporation that you create your own employment and that you arrange a boycott of that company's products. THAT is how you exercise your freedoms, not by limiting the freedoms of others, even if you don't like the way they exercise them. Your right is to decide whether you want to work for a given company. Their right is to determine whether or not they want to hire you for what you want to be paid. If you don't like their decision, you have the right to refuse to buy their products or services and to speak out about any iniquity you believe they are guilty of so long as your claims are truthful and not slanderous. I will repeat, there is no right to work enunciated in the Bill of Rights, nor is there any natural right for you to be employed by any given company or indeed any company whatsoever. Your right to sell your services (right to work) does not carry with it any mandate for anyone to secure your services, at least not under your natural rights (which are the subject of the Bill of Rights). Now, if you want to claim the privileges and immunities of a federal subject guaranteed under Amendment XIV, fine. Those federal privileges exist for federal subjects, but that status means that you have no natural rights as you are a federal ward and not a freeman of one of the several republic states, so I don't want to hear you trying to claim the natural rights of a freeman. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, and you cannot serve two masters. Either you are free and responsible for your own well being or you are a ward and your benefactor owes you oversight through the nanny state. Any willing subject of the nanny state is not my countryman, either figuratively or or legally speaking.

And before someone accuses me of not practicing what I preach, allow me to state that I have worked either by contract or for a company I was part owner of since I was 23. The last major corporation I worked for was Texas Instruments back when I was in college. After that I worked for a couple of years for a small private corporation before striking out on my own. The advice I give here regarding the evils of corporate servitude and the dangers of entitlement and the dependency it breeds is the same advice I give to my own family and friends.

My issue is not with a right to work, but a freedom from deception. The H-1b is oftentimes far from the best and brightest, which is all that program was intended to import. Inflated resumes, lowball salaries, a competition that our best and brightest cannot win. The original intent of the program was to aleviate spot shortages of talent. It has become a wholesale program importing vast numbers of ordinary workers. The entire pretext is false, that there is some huge shortage of workers and we need to import people They are saying that about illegals too.

Much of India's advantage comes not from manpower or superior brains, but from the international exchange rate and from business practices that you and I cannot match.

For example, I was told that Americans are viewed as rich because of what we spend on energy as households. This from people who needed to be told that in most of America it gets cold enough for part of the year to kill a person, and in my area public transportation is pathetic. We were constantly accused of living in McMansions and pursuing luxury when in fact most of us never made more than middle class salaries, if that.

Once someone will work for so little that they can screw up a job three times and it is still cheaper to give the work to them, it no longer matters how good you are. And, as it was explained in a post I saw, to the managers in the skybox, paying one third as much for one fifth of the support seemed like an ok deal.

The playing field is not level. Our best and brightest could hold their own easily if it were. But, international forces want to keep our dollar strong and their currencies weak so that we will to on buying their stuff and firing our own people. That's just my opinion, of course.

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

My issue is not with a right to work, but a freedom from deception. The H-1b is oftentimes far from the best and brightest, which is all that program was intended to import. Inflated resumes, lowball salaries, a competition that our best and brightest cannot win. The original intent of the program was to aleviate spot shortages of talent. It has become a wholesale program importing vast numbers of ordinary workers. The entire pretext is false, that there is some huge shortage of workers and we need to import people They are saying that about illegals too.

Much of India's advantage comes not from manpower or superior brains, but from the international exchange rate and from business practices that you and I cannot match.

For example, I was told that Americans are viewed as rich because of what we spend on energy as households. This from people who needed to be told that in most of America it gets cold enough for part of the year to kill a person, and in my area public transportation is pathetic. We were constantly accused of living in McMansions and pursuing luxury when in fact most of us never made more than middle class salaries, if that.

Once someone will work for so little that they can screw up a job three times and it is still cheaper to give the work to them, it no longer matters how good you are. And, as it was explained in a post I saw, to the managers in the skybox, paying one third as much for one fifth of the support seemed like an ok deal.

The playing field is not level. Our best and brightest could hold their own easily if it were. But, international forces want to keep our dollar strong and their currencies weak so that we will to on buying their stuff and firing our own people. That's just my opinion, of course.

Well, I hear you saying on one hand that this is not about a sense of entitlement, but everything that you follow up with screams the opposite. Do you have a right to the energy consumption you speak of? Our grandparents didn't. As a matter of fact, it was the austerity of the frontiersmen and later of the post-depression generation that resulted in the highwater marks of American industry, and it was the excesses of the Gay Nineties, the Roaring Twenties, and the present that signal oncoming economic crisis.

So your complaints simply make my points for me. Look, we want it all, don't we? I hear Americans complaining about foreign predation and the trade deficit, but then I see them climb into their Hondas or Toyotas to go home and watch their Sony or Samsung big screens; so don't tell me that Americans will not buy foreign products that are cheaper and more feature-laden or better built. Those are the products that we are competing against in a global market. we could pull out of the various trade agreements and go back to 1970s-style protectionism and you know what would happen? We would be right back to where we were in the 1970s with jeans that split at the seams after a month or two, cars that rust out and fall apart in about 40K miles, and all sorts of other crap products at grossly inflated prices. I remember the '70s well and I sure as hell don't want to return to that, nor does anyone else.

Okay, so we have to compete in a global market and we would like to reduce the trade gap. How do we do that? We get more efficient. That means that the most variable cost factor, labor, has to be the key. We either get better productivity or we end up with lower wages. Our productivity is already about as good as it will get, so we either reduce wages or we price ourselves out of the market. People complain about the loss of many industries, but how do you imagine they were lost? We priced ourselves out of the market. This wasn't only labor costs. The desire for a cleaner environment resulted in our electing of candidates who promised to clean it up through regulation, but that regulation carried a high price. We wanted it and we got it. Now we have costs that filthy hellholes like Mexico and China don't have, so we have to make up for that difference somewhere. That "somewhere" is wages, because it is one of the few variable costs.

So we have priced ourselves out of many markets. We can and do still lead the world in innovation. We still file more patents than the rest of the world combined. That means what? It means that if American workers still want to be the highest paid workers in the world, they're going to have to earn it. That means that we have to stop graduating idiots who can't even name the fifty states, do simple algebra or recount even fundamental historical events. It means that we as Americans shift our work/ entertainment balance back to more like 90/10 or 80/20 as compared with the current 50/50 to 60/40. It means that we should be compensated for the creation of wealth (maybe through profit-sharing) rather than according to the number of hours we fill a seat. It means we return to that pioneering ingenuity that served our father so well and step back from the buffet of hedonism and indifference that has come to describe far too many of our countrymen.

Look, I'm not directing this at you specifically, but rather issuing a fair and accurate indictment of the den of indifferent and dependent sloths that this former land of free and independent pioneers has become. I am asking my fellow Americans to stop blaming everyone else for our own failings. We get exactly the representation that we as a nation deserve.

But, the Hondas and Toyotas we buy are made here by American workers. And, I'm seeing more and more companies that advertise against the foreign outsourcing trend, which I will post. It's a little late in the eventing but I'd like to post a guided tour oif the dirty tricks that are played on American workers later tomorrow. I think it will surprise a lot of people to see how far this has gone. I will never forget the sinking feeling I had when I realized how deeply the deck was stacked against us, and in our own country.

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

But, the Hondas and Toyotas we buy are made here by American workers. And, I'm seeing more and more companies that advertise against the foreign outsourcing trend, which I will post. It's a little late in the eventing but I'd like to post a guided tour oif the dirty tricks that are played on American workers later tomorrow. I think it will surprise a lot of people to see how far this has gone. I will never forget the sinking feeling I had when I realized how deeply the deck was stacked against us, and in our own country.

"Made" here just means "assembled" here. the subassemblies are sent over and the profits go back to Japan. Please debate honestly.

Again, the only "dirty tricks" that could be played would be monopolistic or other fraudulent tactics that injure private companies. If you are an employee of a corporation, you are merely receiving the PRIVILEGE of some term of employment. The company is doing you a favor so long as it offers employment and you are providing a reciprocal favor to the company so long as you provide affordable labor. Period. Anything else is socialism or communism.

There's way more to this going on than that. as people will see when I have a chance to post the full explanation.

Coto Wrote:

Kick it back, CrocketsGhost, I've got a headache and i don't know if I'm making sense or not. Besides, Betsy Ross writes more succinctly than I do.

It is rare when I can get through a post of yours without laughing!

Why thanks, April. Nice feline avatar. Yeah, every now and then I think about dropping out, but you keep me motivated. Any H-1B lurkers out there? You can thank April that I'm still at it. heh! heh! heh!