Thread: If Obamacare passes... so does amnesty

Bettybb wrote:

What constitutional problem? Your argument would have to wipe out over 200 years of American Constitutional law. It just isn't going to happen.

There is no constitutional right to chose to buy and what not to buy, and what we need and what we don't need. We are not allowed to buy heroin.
We are not allowed to buy and sell other people. Are you saying the government has no authority to institute the draft?

Please explain how does my argument wipe out over 200 years of American Constitutional law?

For the record, your argument is not a legitimate defense of my concerns. If Congress can require purchase of particular goods or services to help the economy, there was no need for the Cash for Clunkers program. There was no need for the Troubled Asset Relief Program or the other bailouts. Congress could tell people to purchase a certain car, invest their money in certain companies, or deposit what is left of their paychecks in certain banks. If there is no difference between incentives and mandates, between regulating what people choose to do and requiring that they do it, between activity and non-activity, then the Constitution provides no limits on the power of the federal government. And without the necessary condition of such limits, liberty itself is at risk.

The buying/selling of people is addressed in Article XIII (Amendment to the U.S. Consititution)l. And as for the draft, of course the governement has the constitutional right to institute a draft. Read article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. Now it's your turn....... please point out where in the U.S. Constitution the government has the authority to force 'the people' to purchase goods and or services provided by private industry.

Bettybb wrote:

Passing health care reform is the winning out of common sense over fear fueled by propoganda and lies.

I guess in your world the end justifies the means.

Originally Posted by Bettybb

Hylander write

When the IRS is used to enforce this with the penalty of imprisonment, I don't see that as a good omen

?

It is something like a $95 fine.

And since I've been out of work now for almost 2 years, where is the money supposed to come from? I don't qualify for unemployment. I was a business owner. Ya' know one of those pesky little guys who needed to be flushed down the commode like the rest of the little businesses will end up. I refuse to take or accept anything from the Public Treasury. I have a small ammount of savings that I have been living off of, but if I have to take on health insurance by mandate, I'll be broke in 2 months. Yes I know how to make a dollar stretch even in these tough times. So I will not take welfare. I would rather starve first. I'm an American. If the powers that be would get out of the way, and let the people prosper again, I would be back on my feet in a couple months.

So did the penalty rate change? Last I heard it was something like 1500 bucks.

MW wrote:

Please explain how does my argument wipe out over 200 years of American Constitutional law?

The interstate commerce clause and 200 plus years of judicial decisions.

MW wrote:

For the record, your argument is not a legitimate defense of my concerns. If Congress can require purchase of particular goods or services to help the economy, there was no need for the Cash for Clunkers program. There was no need for the Troubled Asset Relief Program or the other bailouts. Congress could tell people to purchase a certain car, invest their money in certain companies, or deposit what is left of their paychecks in certain banks. If there is no difference between incentives and mandates, between regulating what people choose to do and requiring that they do it, between activity and non-activity, then the Constitution provides no limits on the power of the federal government. And without the necessary condition of such limits, liberty itself is at risk.

Are you saying that the government has no right to say that we cannot purchase an abortion?

Are you saying the government has no right to say we may not buy crack cocaine?

Are you saying the government has no right to say we cannot pucharse child sex?


What you are advocating is anti democracy and anarchy... everyone can do anything they want and the collective decision of the people, through democracy, has no valitity what so ever.

MW wrote:

The buying/selling of people is addressed in Article XIII (Amendment to the U.S. Consititution)l. And as for the draft, of course the governement has the constitutional right to institute a draft. Read article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. Now it's your turn....... please point out where in the U.S. Constitution the government has the authority to force 'the people' to purchase goods and or services provided by private industry.

[/quote]

Sorry, but that only allows for a military, not forced military service. So if you are for freedom, you have to say that no, according to your view, the government does not have a right to draft people.

Interstate commerce clause and 200 plus years of judicial decisions.

dman wrote

I guess you'll have no problem paying for illegal alien health care while they pay nothing into the system and American citizens are denied care or worse you or your family members denied care. I guess you have no problem with rising premiums. I guess you have no problem having a government bureaucrat decide if you are entitled to health care and of what and how much. I guess you have no problems with having your taxes raised to support this pile of dung and having to add trillions more to our rising debt. Not to mention the fact that employers will be forced to pay for health care for their employees which will force them to lower wages just to afford it if not outright slash jobs or send them overseas.

We should only give emergency health care to illegal aliens then immediate deport them when stable.

I have huge problems with rising premiums. Under the current system, my insurance company who has posted record profits, is raising rates 33% this year. The health care reform bill will bring down costs.

I guess you support the medical care freeloaders who do not buy insurance, but rely on taxpayer paid for medical care if they get sick, or have an accident.

I guess you don't support the clause in the health care reform bill that says small business employers do not have to provide coverage.

I guess you don't realize by creating insurance exchanges, and allowing cross state sale of insurance, insurance companies are going to face competition and costs are going to go down.

I guess you don't realize that one exchange is going to be non profit. Unless all the insurance companies make changes, and reduce their obcense profit margins, they are going to lose business.

I guess you don't realize that employer paid for health care is already socialism. The employer gets a tax break, so it is actually taxpyaer subsidized health care... only hiddlen so people get fooled.

I guess you don't like the deficit reduction this is going to cause.

I guess you like the fact that Americans spend more on health care and get less in return than any other first world country. You must like the fact we are getting ripped off.

I guess you like the fact that if you get sick, your insurance compnay can drop your coverage.

I guess you like the fact that insurance companies can deny coverage to anyone with a pre existing condition. In effect, the poor risk people get subsidiized by the taxpayer so the insurance companies can make a greater profit.

I guess you like the fact that your health care decisions are made by a clerk in an insurance company who has maybe a high shcool education.


dman wrote

If you want to drink the kool-aide like a good little useful stooge than that is your prerogative, but it doesn't mean the rest of us are going to be dumb enough or naive enough to believe what you are trying to sell us here.

[/quote]

if you are falling for the insurance industry con, aided and abetted by the Repub party, the party who advocates for the interest of the "elite", if you are being manipulated with scare tactics, misinformation and out right lies, that is your look out.

Bettybb wrote:

MW wrote:
Quote:
The buying/selling of people is addressed in Article XIII (Amendment to the U.S. Consititution)l. And as for the draft, of course the governement has the constitutional right to institute a draft. Read article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. Now it's your turn....... please point out where in the U.S. Constitution the government has the authority to force 'the people' to purchase goods and or services provided by private industry.

Sorry, but that only allows for a military, not forced military service. So if you are for freedom, you have to say that no, according to your view, the government does not have a right to draft people.[/quote]

Yes, the goverment does have the right to provide for the common defense of this country!

Excerpt:

12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

13: To provide and maintain a Navy;

14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

I would think most folks and legal scholars would interpret the above to mean that our government has the right to conscript soldiers if necessary in the defense of our country.

Hylander wrote

And since I've been out of work now for almost 2 years, where is the money supposed to come from? I don't qualify for unemployment. I was a business owner. Ya' know one of those pesky little guys who needed to be flushed down the commode like the rest of the little businesses will end up. I refuse to take or accept anything from the Public Treasury. I have a small ammount of savings that I have been living off of, but if I have to take on health insurance by mandate, I'll be broke in 2 months. Yes I know how to make a dollar stretch even in these tough times. So I will not take welfare. I would rather starve first. I'm an American. If the powers that be would get out of the way, and let the people prosper again, I would be back on my feet in a couple months.

Sorry to hear about your job situation. Far, far too many Americans are in the same boat. Our country is being run by the "elite" for the "elite" and their greater profit. It has got to stop.

People who cannot afford to buy coverage get subsidized by the government. Aid is available on a sliding scale for households making up to four times the federal poverty level, $88,200 for a family of four. Premiums for a family of four making $44,000 would be capped at 6% of income.

There is an exemption for low income people, so no fine.

I am a small business owner too. The bill says small business with les than 50 employees do not have to provide coverage.

Hylander wrote

So did the penalty rate change? Last I heard it was something like 1500 bucks.

[/quote]

I never saw that $1500 figure. The last I read, about a week ago, it was around a $95 fine. Besides low income people get an exemption, so no fine if you cannot afford it.

Originally Posted by MW

Bettybb wrote:

MW wrote:

Yes, the goverment does have the right to provide for the common defense of this country!

Excerpt:

[quote:1pfe8yup]12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

13: To provide and maintain a Navy;

14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

I would think most folks and legal scholars would interpret the above to mean that our government has the right to conscript soldiers if necessary in the defense of our country.

[/quote:1pfe8yup]

Yep. That is what most folks and legal scholars would interpret the above to mean, just like most folks and legal scholars interpret the commerce clause to mean the government can make legislate that health care purchase is mandatory.

You cannot have it both ways. If you intepret the Constition literally, then you have to do it for all clauses, not just certain ones!

Bettybb wrote:

MW wrote:

Quote:
Please explain how does my argument wipe out over 200 years of American Constitutional law?


The interstate commerce clause and 200 plus years of judicial decisions.

How does the 'interstate commerce clause' provide authority for mandating that U.S. citizens purchase goods and services from private industry? Just throwing something out there that sounds good is not an answer. As for judicial decisions........please give me one example where our government has required us to purchase goods or services from private industry!

Bettybb wrote:

Yep. That is what most folks and legal scholars would interpret the above to mean, just like most folks and legal scholars interpret the commerce clause to mean the government can make legislate that health care purchase is mandatory.

You cannot have it both ways. If you intepret the Constition literally, then you have to do it for all clauses, not just certain ones!

I'm beginning to think you talk just to see your lips move, or in this case, type to excercise your fingers. Sorry, you're just not making much sense (IMO).

Still waiting for a response on this:

please give me one example where our government has required us to purchase goods or services from private industry!

Welcome to the United Socialist States of Hell.

Your under their control from the CRADLE to the GRAVE....

Kathyet