Is this a Left wing web forum?

[USA2]

I understand DXD, but the spine comment does come close to violating our rules and even I have to restrain myself at times when debating with others.

I know I provided a bad example by telling USA2 to let the door hit him on the butt on the way out and I apologize.

I guess my point is that even those that disagree with us need maximum respect even in very bad cases where they act up and treat us poorly.

I need to practice what I preach, even when my frustration and fatigue level is high.

I hope I can count on you to help me remember that when needed.

A lot of people still respect Bush and respect the office of the President and that is understandable. We all must remember that a lot of people have not exposed themselves to the facts we confront.

Different people are in different places along the path of understanding.

You know that I believe this Congress has to stand up to Bush and demand he do his job, yet you do not see a call for impeachment from me or ALIPAC as an organization out of consideration for those that still hope Bush will come to his senses on this.

W

This reply is both to you and to dxd.

First off, it is not a matter of respect for this President, at least as a person. As a person, this President lost my respect long ago. I do, however, respect the laws of this nation and the offices of this nation, however badly they are being served. My entire point was that the founding fathers' intent as regards impeachment is fairly clear. The process is meant for high crimes and misdemeanors. History has given us a pretty good indication of what that means, and extraordinarily poor judgment or taking actions with which about half of Congress agree isn't even in the ballpark. The impeachment of Clinton was pretty much ridiculous as well and on many levels. First off, while the President should be held to the highest of standards, few people are tried for perjury. However, once the articles were drawn up and the President was tried, the trial should have been by the book. That Clinton perjured himself is beyond question, and he even admitted to being less than honest in his testimony later. Even so, the political nature of impeachment prevented his conviction. How on Earth anyone figures that a President whose immigration policies already have the support of half the Senate could be convicted for those policies as a criminal act by that same Senate is entirely beyond me.

Now, I would like to state that I do not appreciate being bashed. I have been accused of providing misleading information when I have done nothing of the sort. Anyone with a solid junior high school education knows that impeachment cases are tried in the Senate. My statement was that under the current circumstances there was not the slightest chance that the Senate would convict this Presiden on charges related to the immigration debacle. I doubt that the House would ever issue articles of impeachment either, but that is a separate issue from the one I was addressing.

I also do not appreciate partisan attacks against myself, given that I deplore both parties almost equally, and have made this clear from the git go. It appears to ruffle feathers when I bring up the fact that Clinton opened the door and that his fellow Democrats have been at the forefront of putting out the welcome mat in places like California and Texas and preventing meaningful immigration reform in Congress. If the Republicans in Congress are less culpable, it is only slightly less so, though, as I have previously mentioned, I have to give my own Republican congressman, Jeb Hensarling, pretty high marks for standing tough on this issue in the House.

DXD, you appear to be a regular here and I am a newcomer, but I would suggest that it is not me who is pigeonholing you as a harsh partisan, but rather your own use of terms like "brain dead bush worshipper or cult-like R's." This does not serve the cause of unity on this issue or on any issue. I will repeat, this is not a partisan issue, unless the People are a party and the government (both the GOP and the Dems) is the other.

How much traction do you think this group or any other is going to get by making untenable threats such as impeachment to a Republican majority? I'll give you a little tip. I have worked with a number of politicians over the years, and they don't even bother listening to those they know are not going to vote for them under any circumstances. They are all about winning elections. If they think that you will vote for them, they may or may not listen to you. If they know you have voted for them and will no longer vote for them over a given issue, they are more likely to listen to you. If they think that you will no longer vote for them and have the influence to get many others who formerly voted for them to do the same, they will definitely listen to you and may even meet with you. This is the sort of pressure that a group like ALIPAC needs to apply. Republican senators don't pay any attention to threatening missives from the Democratic Underground, and Democrat senators don't pay attention to threats to unseat them from Limbaugh ditto-heads.

But again, if anything, this thread has served a purpose because it has pointed out some issues that ALIPAC probably needs to address if it is to retain a broad base of support. I know many terrific allies in this fight who would instantly turned off by the exchanges in this thread. I provide this commentary as constructive criticism and nothing more.

Well said and let's get back stopping this invasion. We need to keep a close eye and any new presidential candidate and how they vote on this issue. We need to let them know, regardless of which party they sit on. We need t be realistc about any independant party as, it is unlikely they would win an election. However, it does send a message that you do not care for the dem or rep positions on this issue. Keep in mond, there are more issues to consider when placing a vote than illegal immigration.

[dman1200]

USA42 drank the cool-aid folks-have some pity. It may take 20 years to detox. The idea that someone must absolutely worship G.W. in spite of his utter failure to lead this nation and protect us is absurd and sad. In any case, it just reinforces the fact that many of us have been divided and brainwashed by the corporate intersests in the country who have their way while we are all busy calling eachother liberals/conservatives. We are AMERICANS. I for one will never lump my fellow americans into a fake label again.

You have no idea so, stop acting like you do. You are just blinded that's all. Let's hope you don't let that blind you with this effort too.

Tell me what has Bush been good on that we should continue to support him.

1. Immigration? Hell No
2. Trade? Hell No
3. No Child Left Behind which Ted Kennedy Sponsored? Hell No
4. Prescription drugs and Medicare? Hell No
5. Taxes? Only if your a rich robber baron like Dick Cheney
6. Katrina? LMAO
7. Iraq? ROFLMAO
8. Economy? Hell No
9. Spending? ROFLMAO
10. Leadership? Quadruple Hell No

Really I'm waiting to hear why you think we should stop bashing Bush and support this failure of a president. BTW I'm an American first and foremost. I used to think I was conservative, but really what is there to conserve? This nation wrecker has ruined this country almost to the point of no return. Makes me wonder if you are one of those illegal aliens pretending to be an American.

[dman1200]

Keep in mond, there are more issues to consider when placing a vote than illegal immigration.

Like what? Gay Marriage and abortion? Please! I'm so done with giving a sh_t about those two irrelevant issues. Immigration, border security, trade, spending, economy and how we are using our military are the only issues that matter. Immigration is an issue that effects almost all issues.

You stop illegal immigration and you:

Lower crime dramatically
You spend less tax dollars
You create more job openings
You neighborhoods, schools and hospitals become less crowded
Traffic is less congested
No more multilingual crap
Our enviroment suffers less
Alot less foreign diseases
You have more money to spend on us
Wages will rise
No more stupid invader protest

Need I go on.

[CrocketsGhost]

USA42 drank the cool-aid folks-have some pity. It may take 20 years to detox. The idea that someone must absolutely worship G.W. in spite of his utter failure to lead this nation and protect us is absurd and sad. In any case, it just reinforces the fact that many of us have been divided and brainwashed by the corporate intersests in the country who have their way while we are all busy calling eachother liberals/conservatives. We are AMERICANS. I for one will never lump my fellow americans into a fake label again.

You have no idea so, stop acting like you do. You are just blinded that's all. Let's hope you don't let that blind you with this effort too.

Tell me what has Bush been good on that we should continue to support him.

1. Immigration? Hell No
2. Trade? Hell No
3. No Child Left Behind which Ted Kennedy Sponsored? Hell No
4. Prescription drugs and Medicare? Hell No
5. Taxes? Only if your a rich robber baron like Dick Cheney
6. Katrina? LMAO
7. Iraq? ROFLMAO
8. Economy? Hell No
9. Spending? ROFLMAO
10. Leadership? Quadruple Hell No

Really I'm waiting to hear why you think we should stop bashing Bush and support this failure of a president. BTW I'm an American first and foremost. I used to think I was conservative, but really what is there to conserve? This nation wrecker has ruined this country almost to the point of no return. Makes me wonder if you are one of those illegal aliens pretending to be an American.

The one place that I'll take you to task in on the economy, which has actually been quite good. The rough spots are commodity prices, which are the result of over-borrowing (by the federal government) weakening the dollar. If the dollar is intrinsically worth half as much because the debt it represents is twice as high (now over $9 trillion), the fuel and gold it can buy is twice as expensive. Then again, the weak dollar has helped the trade issue without hurting the economy too badly. My company's exports are up almost tenfold in the last three years, with much of it due to competitive pricing thanks to the weak dollar.

When looking at the economy, you have decide what you want. Do you want a strong dollar and a bigger trade deficit or a weak dollar and a smaller trade deficit. Do you prefer low consumer prices or higher unemployment? Many of these pursuits are, by definition, mutually exclusive.

[breezy]

Not Bush Bashing perse'. However, if the shoe fits, nuff said.

Mr. Bush cares so much about what happened on 9/11?, yet promotes and allows, illegals to flood our country. We already have an immigration procedure, geared to the needs of the country's economy, etc. We currently have millions who sneaked across the border, are they not sufficient enough to be classified as "guest workers?" However, guests are generally invited.

[dman1200]

When looking at the economy, you have decide what you want. Do you want a strong dollar and a bigger trade deficit or a weak dollar and a smaller trade deficit. Do you prefer low consumer prices or higher unemployment? Many of these pursuits are, by definition, mutually exclusive.

I hate to burst your bubble, but we have both a weak dollar and a massive trade debt. We have high consumer prices and very high unemployment. All are a direct result of Bush's policies. How have the gas prices been under Bush?

[PinestrawGuys]

If the discussion is about Bush's speech, I think we should have it available, so here it is...

A nation of immigrants and laws

Good evening. I have asked for a few minutes of your time to discuss a matter of national importance -- the reform of America's immigration system.

The issue of immigration stirs intense emotions -- and in recent weeks, Americans have seen those emotions on display. On the streets of major cities, crowds have rallied in support of those in our country illegally. At our southern border, others have organized to stop illegal immigrants from coming in. Across the country, Americans are trying to reconcile these contrasting images. And in Washington, the debate over immigration reform has reached a time of decision. Tonight, I will make it clear where I stand, and where I want to lead our country on this vital issue.

We must begin by recognizing the problems with our immigration system. For decades, the United States has not been in complete control of its borders. As a result, many who want to work in our economy have been able to sneak across our border -- and millions have stayed.

Once here, illegal immigrants live in the shadows of our society. Many use forged documents to get jobs, and that makes it difficult for employers to verify that the workers they hire are legal. Illegal immigration puts pressure on public schools and hospitals, strains state and local budgets, and brings crime to our communities. These are real problems, yet we must remember that the vast majority of illegal immigrants are decent people who work hard, support their families, practice their faith, and lead responsible lives. They are a part of American life -- but they are beyond the reach and protection of American law.

We are a nation of laws, and we must enforce our laws. We are also a nation of immigrants, and we must uphold that tradition, which has strengthened our country in so many ways. These are not contradictory goals -- America can be a lawful society and a welcoming society at the same time. We will fix the problems created by illegal immigration, and we will deliver a system that is secure, orderly, and fair. So I support comprehensive immigration reform that will accomplish five clear objectives.
Securing the borders

First, the United States must secure its borders. This is a basic responsibility of a sovereign nation. It is also an urgent requirement of our national security. Our objective is straightforward: The border should be open to trade and lawful immigration -- and shut to illegal immigrants, as well as criminals, drug dealers, and terrorists.

I was the governor of a state that has a 12,000 mile border with Mexico. So I know how difficult it is to enforce the border, and how important it is. Since I became president, we have increased funding for border security by 66 percent, and expanded the Border Patrol from about 9,000 to 12,000 agents. The men and women of our Border Patrol are doing a fine job in difficult circumstances, and over the past five years, we have apprehended and sent home about 6 million people entering America illegally.

Despite this progress, we do not yet have full control of the border, and I am determined to change that. Tonight I am calling on Congress to provide funding for dramatic improvements in manpower and technology at the border. By the end of 2008, we will increase the number of Border Patrol officers by an additional 6,000. When these new agents are deployed, we will have more than doubled the size of the Border Patrol during my presidency.

At the same time, we are launching the most technologically advanced border security initiative in American history. We will construct high-tech fences in urban corridors, and build new patrol roads and barriers in rural areas. We will employ motion sensors, infrared cameras, and unmanned aerial vehicles to prevent illegal crossings. America has the best technology in the world, and we will ensure that the Border Patrol has the technology they need to do their job and secure our border.

Training thousands of new Border Patrol agents and bringing the most advanced technology to the border will take time. Yet the need to secure our border is urgent. So I am announcing several immediate steps to strengthen border enforcement during this period of transition:

One way to help during this transition is to use the National Guard. So in coordination with governors, up to 6,000 Guard members will be deployed to our southern border. The Border Patrol will remain in the lead. The Guard will assist the Border Patrol by operating surveillance systems, analyzing intelligence, installing fences and vehicle barriers, building patrol roads, and providing training. Guard units will not be involved in direct law enforcement activities -- that duty will be done by the Border Patrol. This initial commitment of Guard members would last for a period of one year. After that, the number of Guard forces will be reduced as new Border Patrol agents and new technologies come online. It is important for Americans to know that we have enough Guard forces to win the war on terror, to respond to natural disasters, and to help secure our border.

The United States is not going to militarize the southern border. Mexico is our neighbor and our friend. We will continue to work cooperatively to improve security on both sides of the border, to confront common problems like drug trafficking and crime, and to reduce illegal immigration.

Another way to help during this period of transition is through state and local law enforcement in our border communities. So we will increase federal funding for state and local authorities assisting the Border Patrol on targeted enforcement missions. And we will give state and local authorities the specialized training they need to help federal officers apprehend and detain illegal immigrants. State and local law enforcement officials are an important resource -- and they are part of our strategy to secure our borders.

The steps I have outlined will improve our ability to catch people entering our country illegally. At the same time, we must ensure that every illegal immigrant we catch crossing our southern border is returned home. More than 85 percent of the illegal immigrants we catch crossing the southern border are Mexicans, and most are sent back home within 24 hours. But when we catch illegal immigrants from other countries, it is not as easy to send them home. For many years, the government did not have enough space in our detention facilities to hold them while the legal process unfolded. So most were released back into our society and asked to return for a court date. When the date arrived, the vast majority did not show up. This practice, called "catch and release," is unacceptable -- and we will end it.

We are taking several important steps to meet this goal. We have expanded the number of beds in our detention facilities, and we will continue to add more. We have expedited the legal process to cut the average deportation time. And we are making it clear to foreign governments that they must accept back their citizens who violate our immigration laws. As a result of these actions, we have ended "catch and release" for illegal immigrants for some countries. And I will ask Congress for additional funding and legal authority, so we can end "catch and release" at the southern border once and for all. When people know that they will be caught and sent home if they enter our country illegally, they will be less likely to try to sneak in.
Temporary worker program

Second, to secure our border, we must create a temporary worker program. The reality is that there are many people on the other side of our border who will do anything to come to America to work and build a better life. They walk across miles of desert in the summer heat, or hide in the back of 18-wheelers to reach our country. This creates enormous pressure on our border that walls and patrols alone will not stop. To secure the border effectively, we must reduce the numbers of people trying to sneak across.

Therefore, I support a temporary worker program that would create a legal path for foreign workers to enter our country in an orderly way, for a limited period of time. This program would match willing foreign workers with willing American employers for jobs Americans are not doing. Every worker who applies for the program would be required to pass criminal background checks. And temporary workers must return to their home country at the conclusion of their stay.

A temporary worker program would meet the needs of our economy, and it would give honest immigrants a way to provide for their families while respecting the law. A temporary worker program would reduce the appeal of human smugglers, and make it less likely that people would risk their lives to cross the border. It would ease the financial burden on state and local governments by replacing illegal workers with lawful taxpayers. And above all, a temporary worker program would add to our security by making certain we know who is in our country and why they are here.
Tamper-proof identification

Third, we need to hold employers to account for the workers they hire. It is against the law to hire someone who is in this country illegally. Yet businesses often cannot verify the legal status of their employees, because of the widespread problem of document fraud. Therefore, comprehensive immigration reform must include a better system for verifying documents and work eligibility. A key part of that system should be a new identification card for every legal foreign worker. This card should use biometric technology, such as digital fingerprints, to make it tamperproof. A tamper-proof card would help us enforce the law, and leave employers with no excuse for violating it. And by making it harder for illegal immigrants to find work in our country, we would discourage people from crossing the border illegally in the first place.
Opposition to amnesty

Fourth, we must face the reality that millions of illegal immigrants are already here. They should not be given an automatic path to citizenship. This is amnesty, and I oppose it. Amnesty would be unfair to those who are here lawfully, and it would invite further waves of illegal immigration.

Some in this country argue that the solution is to deport every illegal immigrant -- and that any proposal short of this amounts to amnesty. I disagree. It is neither wise nor realistic to round up millions of people, many with deep roots in the United States, and send them across the border. There is a rational middle ground between granting an automatic path to citizenship for every illegal immigrant, and a program of mass deportation. That middle ground recognizes that there are differences between an illegal immigrant who crossed the border recently and someone who has worked here for many years, and has a home, a family, and an otherwise clean record.

I believe that illegal immigrants who have roots in our country and want to stay should have to pay a meaningful penalty for breaking the law, to pay their taxes, to learn English, and to work in a job for a number of years. People who meet these conditions should be able to apply for citizenship, but approval would not be automatic, and they will have to wait in line behind those who played by the rules and followed the law. What I have just described is not amnesty. It is a way for those who have broken the law to pay their debt to society, and demonstrate the character that makes a good citizen.
The American melting pot

Fifth, we must honor the great American tradition of the melting pot, which has made us one nation out of many peoples. The success of our country depends upon helping newcomers assimilate into our society, and embrace our common identity as Americans. Americans are bound together by our shared ideals, an appreciation of our history, respect for the flag we fly, and an ability to speak and write the English language. English is also the key to unlocking the opportunity of America. English allows newcomers to go from picking crops to opening a grocery, from cleaning offices to running offices, from a life of low-paying jobs to a diploma, a career, and a home of their own. When immigrants assimilate and advance in our society, they realize their dreams, they renew our spirit, and they add to the unity of America.

Tonight, I want to speak directly to Members of the House and the Senate: An immigration reform bill needs to be comprehensive, because all elements of this problem must be addressed together -- or none of them will be solved at all. The House has passed an immigration bill. The Senate should act by the end of this month, so we can work out the differences between the two bills, and Congress can pass a comprehensive bill for me to sign into law.

America needs to conduct this debate on immigration in a reasoned and respectful tone. Feelings run deep on this issue, and as we work it out, all of us need to keep some things in mind. We cannot build a unified country by inciting people to anger, or playing on anyone's fears, or exploiting the issue of immigration for political gain. We must always remember that real lives will be affected by our debates and decisions, and that every human being has dignity and value no matter what their citizenship papers say.
Dreams of a better life

I know many of you listening tonight have a parent or a grandparent who came here from another country with dreams of a better life. You know what freedom meant to them, and you know that America is a more hopeful country because of their hard work and sacrifice. As president, I have had the opportunity to meet people of many backgrounds, and hear what America means to them. On a visit to Bethesda Naval Hospital, Laura and I met a wounded marine named Guadalupe Denogean. Master Gunnery Sergeant Denogean came to the United States from Mexico when he was a boy. He spent his summers picking crops with his family, and then he volunteered for the United States Marine Corps as soon as he was able. During the liberation of Iraq, Master Gunnery Sergeant Denogean was seriously injured. When asked if he had any requests, he made two: a promotion for the corporal who helped rescue him, and the chance to become an American citizen. And when this brave marine raised his right hand, and swore an oath to become a citizen of the country he had defended for more than 26 years, I was honored to stand at his side.

We will always be proud to welcome people like Guadalupe Denogean as fellow Americans. Our new immigrants are just what they have always been -- people willing to risk everything for the dream of freedom. And America remains what she has always been -- the great hope on the horizon, an open door to the future, a blessed and promised land. We honor the heritage of all who come here, no matter where they are from, because we trust in our country's genius for making us all Americans -- one nation under God. Thank you, and good night.

[biogrl]

You have no idea so, stop acting like you do. You are just blinded that's all. Let's hope you don't let that blind you with this effort too.

Ummmm, What? Was this comment supposed to mean something? A little clarification would be nice.

[ALIPAC]

I believe the Constitution must have some option for a President that becomes more supportive of financial interests over the American public leading to thousands of deaths and the loss of the nation.

Surely, the remedy is with the strongest body which is the Congress.

W

[CrocketsGhost]

I believe the Constitution must have some option for a President that becomes more supportive of financial interests over the American public leading to thousands of deaths and the loss of the nation.

Surely, the remedy is with the strongest body which is the Congress.

W

Sorry, but that is simply not the case. The FFs created the three branches as co-equal, so the only time that one could encroach upon the other is for treason or clear-cut violation of law. While the case could be made that the sell-out of America is tantamount to treason, we must remember that Congress is complicit in this sellout. I have previously attempted to explain why the "violation of law" route (impeachment) won't work. So the number one solution is the one set forth by the FFs: the ballot box.

There are other avenues we could be treading, however. While the Constitution delegates securing the borders to the federal government, there is nothing in it that would prohibit states from defending their interests against the predations of foreign invaders. We should definitely pressing harder at the state levels for meaningful action as at least a stop-gap until this President is a memory and an angry public is given the opprtunity to speak with its votes in November and in 2008. The truth is that in many cases it is the state governments that are MOST complicit in abetting the invaders. California has done everything but provide 40 acres and a mule.