Thread: Sanctions Apply Only if They Want Citizenship

Grayrider and Debby,

Thanks for the redirect. I didn't intend for my post to be a personal attack on marinermama. I just have strong reactions to sweeping assumptions of who's on 'the other side'. Too much of the current 'American way' is derived from suspicion, paranoia, and rejection. We used to be a welcoming society.

I can see from many of the new posts here that many of you are suffering from a 'Mexican illegal' problem. This is quite different from my experience. All of the 100+ illegal residents that I have spoken to are European. Most of them are eastern European. None of them have more than one family in a house. All of them have very strong work ethics, and most of them sincerely wish to become permanent residents or US citizens.

So you see, the illegal alien problem is more complex than your own personal experience. Whatever legislation is passed with the 'Mexican problem' in view has a direct impact on the Europeans who create very different communities - much like our ancestors did when they first arrived here.

Originally Posted by Spin

Grayrider and Debby,

Thanks for the redirect. I didn't intend for my post to be a personal attack on marinermama. I just have strong reactions to sweeping assumptions of who's on 'the other side'. Too much of the current 'American way' is derived from suspicion, paranoia, and rejection. We used to be a welcoming society.

I can see from many of the new posts here that many of you are suffering from a 'Mexican illegal' problem. This is quite different from my experience. All of the 100+ illegal residents that I have spoken to are European. Most of them are eastern European. None of them have more than one family in a house. All of them have very strong work ethics, and most of them sincerely wish to become permanent residents or US citizens.

So you see, the illegal alien problem is more complex than your own personal experience. Whatever legislation is passed with the 'Mexican problem' in view has a direct impact on the Europeans who create very different communities - much like our ancestors did when they first arrived here.

Spin I respect your point of view. Yes, in fact I have a hospital in my area that is closing due to the costs that they cannot maintain by giving free medical care to illegals. This has been a great problem in CA. Most states have not had to deal with it for decades but we have.

However, with saying that. If ANYONE has entered my country without permission and invitation they are not welcome in my book. They may be nice people but they don't respect, me, my country, or my countries laws. If they did it legally I might even want them for neighbors, but not as it stands.

Spin you are absolutely correct, and I wish we could seperate the 2. My business hired several LEGAL eastern european and Russian workers and were very happy with the results. The people you are referring to are trying to assimilate and want very much to adapt to their new home. The Mexican invasion I believe is a totally seperate issue. How do we seperate the 2?

Welcome Spin...and your comments show just how complicated the issue is. I'm sure your experience, living in New Hampshire, is much different than those who live in the border states of Arizona and New Mexico.

Spin, while in your situation the illegals that you know are of European descent; they are a small percentage of the whole illegal population.
The majority of illegals are from Mexico and have come across the
border. The second largest percent are from South American countries
and have come across the border thru Mexico. Maybe in your com-
munity you have not had illegals from Mexico or other Spanish speaking countries but this is not the case for other areas in the country.

The important thing is that this forum is for legal immigration and
against illegal immigration. It doesn't matter what country the illegal
immigrant is from. They are in the country illegally and are breaking
our laws.

And Georgia

Originally Posted by Debby

Spin, while in your situation the illegals that you know are of European descent; they are a small percentage of the whole illegal population.
The majority of illegals are from Mexico and have come across the
border. The second largest percent are from South American countries
and have come across the border thru Mexico. Maybe in your com-
munity you have not had illegals from Mexico or other Spanish speaking countries but this is not the case for other areas in the country.

The important thing is that this forum is for legal immigration and
against illegal immigration. It doesn't matter what country the illegal
immigrant is from. They are in the country illegally and are breaking
our laws.

Don't forget Debbie that we know of at least 160,000 middle Easterners who have come across as Mexican nationals too.

True, Gogo!!

As I said in the previous post illegal is illegal no matter what country
the person is from. I was replying to Spin's post where it was stated
the we seem to "Mexican Oriented" in the area of illegal immigration.
Sometimes we lose sight of the fact that there are illegals here from
other countries as well as Mexico.

But no matter where they are from, they are still here illegally. While
the majority are here to work hard and build a new life for themselves
there are others who have a different mission. When people are
here illegally we don't know who they are, if they have a criminal
background, or what their objectives are.

Debby!!!

Debby,

How many of our laws have you broken in your lifetime?

I've broken a lot and I'm still here.

Please don't take what I am about to write as willful disregard for law. I don't mean it that way. But I would like to point out that there is a lot about our country's laws that needs to be reformed.

One thing that is worth thinking about is that laws are created to serve people. People should not serve law. When a society reaches a point where their lives, their processes, are all twisted up in order to conform to law, there may be something wrong with the law - not the people.

One of the professional responsibilities I have in my work is to work with international standards organizations - the people who have brought us technical standards that manufacturers use as production specifications - some of which actually make it possible for us to communicate like this on the Internet.

There's a lot of good work that comes out of these efforts, but the most frustrating thing about the process is that the organizations themselves often get tied up in endless boondoggles of policy (organizational law). When I see the mess that we can get ourselves into it becomes clear that the organization's policies and processes need to be reformed. That is much like the situation we have in the US today - it's just that we have different points of view about how the reform should take place.

You seem to advocate complete unforgiveness for any transgression, while I advocate forgiveness of non-aggressive misbehavior.

How far in life do you honestly think you would have gotten if someone watched your every move and locked you up every time you transgressed the law?

If you believe in heaven, do you think that you're going to get in based on the standard of judgement that you want to apply to all illegal residents? How many laws have you actually broken and how many times have you done it?

Do you honestly want to apply a rigid standard to others that you could not live under yourself - simply because they can be classified as "illegal" by their mere existence in this country? What about you? When you do something illegal, should we toss you out?

Originally Posted by Spin

Debby,

How many of our laws have you broken in your lifetime?

I've broken a lot and I'm still here.

Please don't take what I am about to write as willful disregard for law. I don't mean it that way. But I would like to point out that there is a lot about our country's laws that needs to be reformed.

One thing that is worth thinking about is that laws are created to serve people. People should not serve law. When a society reaches a point where their lives, their processes, are all twisted up in order to conform to law, there may be something wrong with the law - not the people.

One of the professional responsibilities I have in my work is to work with international standards organizations - the people who have brought us technical standards that manufacturers use as production specifications - some of which actually make it possible for us to communicate like this on the Internet.

There's a lot of good work that comes out of these efforts, but the most frustrating thing about the process is that the organizations themselves often get tied up in endless boondoggles of policy (organizational law). When I see the mess that we can get ourselves into it becomes clear that the organization's policies and processes need to be reformed. That is much like the situation we have in the US today - it's just that we have different points of view about how the reform should take place.

You seem to advocate complete unforgiveness for any transgression, while I advocate forgiveness of non-aggressive misbehavior.

How far in life do you honestly think you would have gotten if someone watched your every move and locked you up every time you transgressed the law?

If you believe in heaven, do you think that you're going to get in based on the standard of judgement that you want to apply to all illegal residents? How many laws have you actually broken and how many times have you done it?

Do you honestly want to apply a rigid standard to others that you could not live under yourself - simply because they can be classified as "illegal" by their mere existence in this country? What about you? When you do something illegal, should we toss you out?

Actually, I find flaws in your analogy. Yes, corporate and organizational laws can get in the way. However, when laws are not ENFORCED for the sake of the people and the country that is were the break down is.

Now I have received only one ticket in driving in my life time of driving for 50 years. No other law has been broken. I didn't even play hooky from school.

Do I believe in heaven OH YES. I do believe in scripture that states in Romans 13: 1-5 that government is ordained by God to protect the people and that if we disobey those laws then we are also disobeying God. So all those who have disregarded our country's laws by-passing the legal way of entry aren't just disobeying our laws they are disobeying God's.