Thread: Sanctions Apply Only if They Want Citizenship

Originally Posted by Debby

When people are here illegally we don't know who they are, if they have a criminal background, or what their objectives are.

My goodness Debby!!

When people are here legally we often don't know who they are, if they have a criminal background, or what their objectives are. Should we throw everybody out - even ourselves - because there are some that we can't trust?

That whole line of logic is simply a weak campaign speech designed to stir up support from people who don't think. That's not a personal attack - it is a wake up call to think!

Gogo,

Thanks. There are flaws in everyone's analogies.

But I like you. You're thinking.

And the passage continues... Romans 13:8-10 (NIV) Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Originally Posted by Spin

Originally Posted by Debby

When people are here illegally we don't know who they are, if they have a criminal background, or what their objectives are.

My goodness Debby!!

When people are here legally we often don't know who they are, if they have a criminal background, or what their objectives are. Should we throw everybody out - even ourselves - because there are some that we can't trust?

That whole line of logic is simply a weak campaign speech designed to stir up support from people who don't think. That's not a personal attack - it is a wake up call to think!

At least there are to be background checks.

Spin, do you believe in the sovereignty of the United States of America, or ANY other country. How do we maintain our sovereignty, our culture or our identity with open borders. There are a great deal of people who want to better themselves in this world, but at the expense of others. We have the greatest system in the world here, but can we afford to let the entire world just walk in and take up residency? We have laws to protect us from people who would do us harm and they have to be enforced. Not just the ones that we think are aplicable to our way of thinking, but to ALL of us. Illegal imigration is not a victimless crime. Look at all th tremendous costs associated with this crime. Healthcare, education, wellfare,law enforcement, real estate losses,and too many more. Are you bilingual, or trilingual or qudlingual? What if you lost your job tommorow because the people you deal with didn't want to speak your language? What if you lost your job beacause your company couldn't compete with companies paying less than yours to illegals? I'll stop now because my fingers hurt, but hopefully you have something to think about and may even be able to look at this issue from a different point of view.

Originally Posted by Spin

Gogo,

Thanks. There are flaws in everyone's analogies.

But I like you. You're thinking.

And the passage continues... Romans 13:8-10 (NIV) 8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Very good Spin. How do I love a neighbor that disobeys the law. I turn them into the law and have them prosecuted for your safety, your children's and mine. If someone had done that a while back in our small town, a young woman would be alive today, but NO they kept giving the guy a pass. It was called COMPASSION. Gee I think that young woman would have loved to have some compassion as he sliced her to death.

There is also a scripture. "Do not let truth or kindness leave you. Bind them around your neck." In other words when you speak with kindness do not leave TRUTH out of your speech. When you speak TRUTH, say it with kindness.

Grayrider,

Yes, I do believe in the sovereignty of the United States of America, and of all other nations, and of the rights of each nation to protect their people, their borders, their safety.

And I wouldn't argue with anything that you just wrote.

But I think that it is wrong for us to treat all of the illegal residents in this country as though they are hard criminals. Some are, and should be handled accordingly. But there are qualitative differences among them. I see that almost every day.

Something else that I see first-hand is the gross disrespect that legal aliens are treated with by our immigration officials, and the humiliation that they endure on a daily basis simply because they are from a different country. And remember, I am talking about legal aliens.

I have stood in the immigration offices in Boston and watched burley, brusque, rude officials speak to legal aliens as though they are dogs - prisoners in a prison. And then I have walked up to the same counter and stood next to another legal alien and watch the same officials treat the person standing next to me with the greatest of respect - because I (an American citizen by birth) was standing with them.

There is no excuse for this disgusting behavior on the part of the officials who represent us in this country.

You wrote about our "culture", our "identity". Our first identity must be "human" - not "American". I never used to be ashamed to be American when I traveled abroad. These days I often am. I'm going to spend the next two weeks in Eastern Europe, and I know I am going to be presented with a lot of embarrassing questions about the knuckle-head behind our President's Seal and similar topics - just like I was on my last trip. This country is broken and it is not simply the "illegals" who have done it. We have done to ourselves. But I digress... (gotta go home and eat now - might be back tomorrow).

Peace -

Originally Posted by Gogo

There is also a scripture. "Do not let truth or kindness leave you. Bind them around your neck." In other words when you speak with kindness do not leave TRUTH out of your speech. When you speak TRUTH, say it with kindness.

Gogo,

It is Proverbs 3:3. And it reads: Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart.

It's meaning is on its face: whatever you do, do it with deep love and faithfulness. That message, teamed with the overriding message of the Bible - God's love for His people - makes the message clear:

Whatever you do, do it with deep love and faithfulness towards God's people. Last time I checked, illegal aliens were counted as God's people too.

This bill will give them

instant legal status

which gives them to right to be here and work and that is what most of them want and will never apply for citizenship and pay the $5,000 in fines.
Legal status is amnesty because it wil not cost them.

Originally Posted by Spin

Debby,

How many of our laws have you broken in your lifetime?

I've broken a lot and I'm still here.

Please don't take what I am about to write as willful disregard for law. I don't mean it that way. But I would like to point out that there is a lot about our country's laws that needs to be reformed.

One thing that is worth thinking about is that laws are created to serve people. People should not serve law. When a society reaches a point where their lives, their processes, are all twisted up in order to conform to law, there may be something wrong with the law - not the people.

One of the professional responsibilities I have in my work is to work with international standards organizations - the people who have brought us technical standards that manufacturers use as production specifications - some of which actually make it possible for us to communicate like this on the Internet.

There's a lot of good work that comes out of these efforts, but the most frustrating thing about the process is that the organizations themselves often get tied up in endless boondoggles of policy (organizational law). When I see the mess that we can get ourselves into it becomes clear that the organization's policies and processes need to be reformed. That is much like the situation we have in the US today - it's just that we have different points of view about how the reform should take place.

You seem to advocate complete unforgiveness for any transgression, while I advocate forgiveness of non-aggressive misbehavior.

How far in life do you honestly think you would have gotten if someone watched your every move and locked you up every time you transgressed the law?

If you believe in heaven, do you think that you're going to get in based on the standard of judgement that you want to apply to all illegal residents? How many laws have you actually broken and how many times have you done it?

Do you honestly want to apply a rigid standard to others that you could not live under yourself - simply because they can be classified as "illegal" by their mere existence in this country? What about you? When you do something illegal, should we toss you out?

Spin,
I think you are taking my posts in the wrong context. You do not
know me nor can you put words in my mouth on how I treat others,
if I have broken the law, or what my beliefs are! I have immigrants
from Russia, Germany, France, Spain, Brazil, Venezuala, Korea,
the Philipines, Cuba, Puerta Rico, Mexico and other countries who
are my neighbors in the apartment complex I live in. I treat them with
dignity and respect and many I am proud to call my friends.

As I said in my previous post there are many illegal immigrants who
are here to work hard, etc. but there are a few here that have other
agendas. In this I am referring to terrorists and criminals. They enter
our country illegally or overstay visas. We do not know who these people are, where they are, etc.


Did you forget 9/11!!! These men overstayed their visas
and slipped thru the system. You know what happened after that.
Our system needs to be reformed to prevent this ever happening again.
After they overstayed their visas there should have been some way to know where they were and what they were doing. They were even in Las
Vegas a month before the attacks having coffee not a mile from where I live.

While I have compassion for people and the reasons they want to come
to our great country; I want them to come here legally. Also, we have
no way of knowing who is crossing our borders. Next to the person
seeking a better life can be a terrorist or criminal who adjective is
completely different.

I will never forget 9/11!!

Originally Posted by Spin

Originally Posted by Gogo

There is also a scripture. "Do not let truth or kindness leave you. Bind them around your neck." In other words when you speak with kindness do not leave TRUTH out of your speech. When you speak TRUTH, say it with kindness.

Gogo,

It is Proverbs 3:3. And it reads: Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart.

It's meaning is on its face: whatever you do, do it with deep love and faithfulness. That message, teamed with the overriding message of the Bible - God's love for His people - makes the message clear:

Whatever you do, do it with deep love and faithfulness towards God's people. Last time I checked, illegal aliens were counted as God's people too.

I quoted from the New American Standard which is considered one of the closest translations from the Hebrew and Greek. I would disagree with your interpretation of "God's people." If you would like to discuss it please PM me I won't hijack the site for a personal discussion.