Thread: Bush most liberal of U.S. presidents

Originally Posted by Bootsie

Could be. We'll PROBABLY never know. I got the feeling, from what Rumsfeld said about bin Laden really not mattering that much, that it was just a smoke screen to prevent embarassment. I HOPE you're right but I really wouldn't be at all surprised if he was hiding either in Pakistan OR JORDAN. The only argument that would tend to lead me to agree that he's dead is that it would be awfully hard to hide such a TALL man in the Middle East where that is just very unusual.

Rumsfeld lost his marbles a long time ago. I believe bin Laden is dead. Terrorists could have used the 50 million to pay for their JIHAD materials. I do believe that they would have accepted much less a reward in a heartbeat, to turn in one of their own.
Iraq is smack-dab in the middle of a hell-hole. Bush has taken it upon himself, along with Blair; to take us into a 'BLOODY QUAGMIRE' that is costing us lots of money, and sacrificing the lives of many of our brave soldiers. Its a war that needs a different strategy. What that is, I dont know. But I believe we are fueling terroist groups that would otherwise crawl back into hell, if we would just get out. Islamic fanatics are everywhere. What are we supposed to do? Occupy and preach democracy to the entire world? I would rather our country mind some of its own business, like protecting our borders.

Originally Posted by Judy

Yes, he is not only tall, he is ill and needs kidney dialysis regularly. Not only that, he has multiple wives and children and travels in a group of 60 people. Raising the reward would have been most helpful because a group of 60 with one of them on kidney dialysis requires outsiders and one of those might turn him in for $50 mm. A waiter, a courier, a nurse, a driver, a spy, an opportunist.

Arabs afterall are merchants and trading something like information for money would appeal to them as much as any one.

Don't forget Osama bin Laden was offered to Bill Clinton on a silver platter and he didn't want him. I agree there is a good chance he is already dead with his health problems, which would make it much harder for him to stay in seclusion for so long without someone not knowing his whereabouts. If he were still alive it wouldn't surprise me if someone in his own organization betrayed him to seize power for themself.

Well,. I see you have been busy while I was AFK.

I remember the tape at the beginning of the war. I remember others but there was controversy raised over their authenticity. Of course, the Bush backers never acknowledged anything but the initial salvos about the tapes being authentic and therefore the retraction would have been told on the late night news out of LA or something.

Has anyone seen the short movie called Lines in The Sand that was supposed to have been a propaganda take refuting Michael Moore's 9/11 or vise versa. It is beyond a doubt the most gruesome thing I've ever seen. It tells of the madrassas and the brainwashed people who carry out the orders of the militant imams. The barbaric things depicted in the "Sand" video actually happen in countries like Iraq though.

Farenheit 9/11 is equally disturbing in terms of what our own government does to us in secret. Somewhere in the middle of them lies the truth, I imagine.

I already said what I think is the situation with Osama bin Laden. I think someone, possibly someone in our own government, knows way more than they are telling about him. Perhaps that is the reason they don't invoke his name every time they want to tick off the people to line them up behind Bush anymore. Or maybe it just quit working so they had to look for a new tactic.

It was pretty common knowledge that he was quite a fanatic and an embarassment to his family before 9-11 so I guess I never questioned that he could engineer such a horrific event as 9-11. Wasn't he even educated in the US himself?

As to which countries are involved with the terrorists, and I believe all of them are in some fashion whether they know it or not, we will never really know. But I don't think we should start attacking them all then discovering it was the wrong place again.

As for Afghanistans Poppies, I don't see burning them as our business. That stuff doesn't get this far because they have all of Asia and Africa to supply with a lot less logistic hassles. Ours comes from our neighbors to the south.

Bootsie, I never personally got hit with the Mutawah's stick but I know women who did. I was told to cover my head one time in a public souk by one of them but I just turned away from him and ignored him rather than challenge him. LOL

I think all but the Al-Jazeera interview are phonies. Why would Osama let someone into a dinner party in November of 2001 when he knows the US is blaming him for 9/11 and is the Most Wanted Man in the World....with a Video Camera and Audio Feature AFTER he has already denied responsibility and is supposedly ON THE RUN, IN SECRET HIDING?

Oh, pleease.



And yes Osama is a rich boy, an embarassment to some degree to his family, but websites state his many brothers and sisters and cousins send him money. The Daddy had 40 wives and I think 400 children so Osama is one of Many With Much. They are incredibly wealthy. Hard to imagine him and an extended 60 person family of his own "stoking" out in uncomfortable caves for now what....over 4 years with an illness?

Oh, pleease.



WE've been Conned!!!

Conned is just putting it WAY too mildly. We've been BRAINWASHED. On a LOT of things. And, it continues to this day. Who knows whether he's dead or alive. We DO know, however, that al Zawari IS alive and we know that Mullah Omar, the blind Sheik, is alive. AND, what's worse, we know that al Zarqawi is alive and well and wreaking HAVOC in Iraq and now Jordan. Now, they keep telling us that it is just SO difficult to find the first two, or three if you count bin Laden, in those wild mountain regions between Afghanistan and Pakistan BUT WHY can they not find this al Zarqawi in IRAQ??? See--our intelligence has NOT improved after 4 years. And, this man was the ONE terrorist who has NOW aligned himself with bin Laden, so he says, who was IN Iraq for medical treatment when we went to Iraq. BUT, he had his little training camp in Kurdistan, NOT in the Saddam-controlled region of Iraq before the war. But, we must have given him the idea that he would be a lot more effective if he aligned himself with al Qaeda and now he's getting support from them. What I just have a really hard time understanding is why our Special Ops can't find this man.

I haven't seen either of the two movies, Junius, but I have seen clips of both and I agree that both have merit and the truth lies somewhere in between. Glad you weren't hit with a stick!!

Butterbean--I am more inclined to agree with your assessment of Iraq though. There is NO question that it is fueling the Islamic radicals and that could justify Judy's contention that we need to get our troops out. I'm not SURE I would agree with the fact that any of those fanatics would sell bin Laden OR THE OTHER AL QAEDA HIGHER UPS out for 25 million or 50 million. Remember, these are religious ZEALOTS and also don't forget the VIRGINS! They would probably think that those virgins would be a much better reward than the money. It has not worked in Iraq with al Zarqawi either. So, there must be an EXTREME loyalty among these Muslim fanatics. It really shouldn't be that hard to find Zarqawi in Iraq IF anyone was willing to turn him in for the money.

If it makes y'all feel better, Sylvia Browne, the psychic, says she thinks he's dead too. So, y'all are in good company. I still am not so sure myself. We know that there was INTELLIGENCE that said he had to have dialysis but we now know about INTELLIGENCE. AND, what's to say that he hasn't had a kidney transplant?? Anyway, we will probably NEVER KNOW.

One thing that has always been suspicious about the whole 9/11 thing was how did our government know, from the get-go, that bin Laden was the masterminder?? AND, how did we know by the next day, who the 19 hijackers were?? I know this will open a HUGE DISCUSSION, JUDY!!!

You know I've been thinking about that religious fanatic Islam fundamentalist extremism and I'm not sold on it yet. I've heard they pay some of them and promise their families money. This was the PLO strategy for the bombings in Israel. They would use young kids, 13 or 14 years old to whom the virgins and notion of sex, matrydom, money for the family would play on the "impressionable" mind...young kids who saw no future on earth in Palestine.

But this grown up zealot...this educated zealot....this well-travelled zealot....this Westernized zealot....like the so-called hijackers of 911....well....that just doesn't fly in the face of zealot reasoning.

There is something missing in our understanding of all this. I don't know what it is yet but we need to keep our minds very open because there is something going on here that zealotry doesn't explain; that even Islam can't explain; and now that they are bombing Muslim People in Muslim Nations like Jordan....that defies the "kill Americans" story.

Something's afoot here and things are not what they seem. Supposedly a woman and her boyfriend were involved in the Amman bombings, so the virgin thing won't fly there. And does Islam recognize female Martyrs?
Does Islam condone suicide? Does Islam condone bombing each other? Does Islam condone murdering women and children? Innocent Muslims?

No. No. No. No. and No.

So, the religious zealot thing they've been trying to shove down our throats doesn't fly here.

Why can't they find Zarqawi?

Lets analyze with what we now know about our US Government.

It creates mirages. Mirages of threats. Mirages of hijackers. Mirages of Al-Qaeda.

There are dangers but who is actually behind the dangers? We know they created a mirage for Iraq, imminent threats that weren't there, didn't exist. If they had the resources to find the aluminum tubes and misrepresent them, then they had the resources to know what else was there and what else was NOT THERE...yet we're told, there are terrorists in Iraq, there are WMDs in Iraq, there are nuclear capabilities in Iraq...yet....NONE OF THESE THINGS WERE THERE. They Created a Mirage of Danger in Iraq.

9/11. A Mirage of Terrorists. Whose names were not on the passenger manifests for the airlines. A Mirage of who they were, where they came from, how they stayed in motels, bought on-line air-line tickets, knew their every movement....AFTER they were supposedly dead. Yet, while their pictures of somebody on a video camera at the airport...their NAMES WERE NOT ON THE PASSENGER MANIFESTS of the planes they supposedly bought their tickets on-line (means in the computer) for and supposedly boarded and supposedly flew these planes into the WTC and Pentagon...but their names, not one of them, showed up on the passenger manifests.

Think about the name of the operation: Able Danger

What does that mean? Is that the opposite of Disable Danger

Does this mean "Activate Danger" as opposed to "De-activate" or "Disable Danger"?

Think about the name Al-Qaeda. This is a name WE gave the terrorist network suppoedly run by bin Laden. Why would WE name his organization? If we named it, why wouldn't we give it an English name like "Osama's Hateful Boys" or "Osama's Afghan Loons" or Bin Laden's Looneys" or something that names it from our perspective so we can write a name on a file to identify which group of terrorists we're trying to find. Why else would we name it except to identify it as Osama's group versus Arafat's group for example?

Why would WE give Osama's organization a name in Arabic that means "the base" instead of some name in English that means "terrorist"? There is really no evidence that Osama has an organization. He had a little band in Afghanistan and supposedly set up camps there but I swear I still don't understand why Osama would let someone visit his camp and take video pictures of it and leave alive. They could be spies for the Americans and soon bombs might drop from a airplane and wipe out his camp and him and his wives and children.

If someone was working undercover and sneaked a CIA cameria in there and took the video, why were the students wearing hoods in the video?

Nothing makes sense because it isn't sense. None of this is real. It's a mirage.

There is danger alright. And it's "able" alright. But it's not where we're being told it is; and it's not from whom we're being told.

Something is afoot alright, but it's not what we're being told about anything.

As we speak...it just flashed on the news that they found the "WOMAN". Isn't it ironic that her bomb mechanism didn't work. She was the first female bomber. Well....almost. Islam doesn't support this. So, she didn't blow herself up. Her device didn't work. Supposedly the other 3 did. Now there is a witness.

Can you believe this? She is still wearing the bomb and modelled it for us. She's holding the explosives in her hand in a building after being arrested and someone is taking her picture and she opens her dress and shows everyone in the room and the camera her waist-band explosve device.

Good Grief!! Have you ever heard of anything so ridiculous? A person has been arrested and is taken into custody days after a bombing and they process her while still in her "bomb outfit" which could go off at any time for any reason and blow everyone to smitherines...unless of course it is not a bomb outfit in reality.

Mirages. UNreality.

"Able Danger" = "Activate Danger" = "Make Danger" = "Create Danger" = "Create Terrorism".

Something's Afoot but things are not what them seem.

I had heard yesterday, on one of the Sunday talk shows where King Abdullah of Jordan appeared as a guest, that they had JUST arrested the woman whose bomb didn't detonate. AND, this is what they said. They said she is the sister-in-law of Zarqawi's right hand man. SO, IF there really is a Zarqawi and IF he is the root of the problem in Iraq, they should be able to get some GOOD intelligence from this woman. I didn't see the shot you just saw, Judy, but that is SICK.

And, you brought up something that I was thinking about when I got up this morning and trying to figure what thread I could add it to. That is this Able Danger conflict. SOMETHING very WRONG is going on here. There is not just ONE MEMBER who said that Able Danger identified Atta a YEAR before 9/11 as a threat but now there are a couple more. And, YET, the DOD has SHUT THEM UP. AND, the 9/11 Commission is VERY evasive about WHY they didn't investigate their claims. Something is just not right in this picture. I have heard the members of the Able Danger team and I found them EXTREMELY believable. AND, WHY would the DOD shut them up. And, the Pentagon has also destroyed documents related to the group.

You raise some good questions about Islamic Fundamentalism but my feeling is that this really IS a Holy War and they want to take over the world. When you think about their claims that we are the infidels and the fact that we just can't seem to mind our own business but want to CONVERT the Muslim world, it makes them more believeable to me. Think about it in relation to the Pat Robertson's of Christianity. Look at how EXTREME he is. Did you hear what he had to say about the Dover, Pennsylvania vote to keep intelligent design from being taught in their schools???? So, when you look at his type of Christian as compared with OUR type, can you not see that the Muslim faith could very well have such EXTREMES as it does??? We are as far away in our beliefs from Pat Robertson's as anyone could be yet it is still Christianity. Remember what he said about Chavez. This is NOT MAINSTREAM Christianity. So, it just stands to reason that there are factions in EVERY religion that are EXTREME.

Here's one additional thing to consider. When we hear this nonsense from Pat Robertson, he's making money in the zillions for his "position" from this 700 Club and television show. He still goes home for dinner and tucks into bed at night and wakes up the next day and does it all over again. He's not a religious zealot, he's a religious maggot spewing for dollars. And he's not laying his life down for it, he's just filling his purse.

According to government claims, Osama is the Legend, the KingPin, the Leader, the Fanatico Supremeo of Islamic Extremism...yet....he is not suicidal; has thus far never laid down his life for the "cause". So he is not a religious zealot either and has thus far sought no Martyrdom.

Zarqawi is the same story. He's not a religious zealot to the extent of being a Martyr, laying his life down for his Jihad, wearing a bomb on his waist for the "cause". No, he's not THAT much of a zealot.

I just heard some more about the woman bomber, she is the wife of one of the bombers and had her bomb worked, they would have been the first "bomber couple". Apparently her brother talked her into it. But they didn't say if her brother was one of the other 3 bombers. My impression was that he was not a bomber zealot, lives and isn't himself personally interested in any of this stapping of bombs to his waist and becoming a "martyr" himself.

He is apparently a "recruiter" and they must be running low on folks if he's having to use his sister and brother-in-law to "wage terror".

I knew there were two who were married. And, the person who talked her into it was probably the brother in law who is said to be al Zarqawi's "second hand man".

You make some good points about these "LEADERS". They seem to want to send their underlings out to do the dirty deed. NOT UNLIKE OUR PRESIDENT who is sending our young people to Iraq to risk THEIR lives for HIS cause.

Why would WE give Osama's organization a name in Arabic that means "the base" instead of some name in English that means "terrorist"?

They name their organizations, we don't. And most the time we don't even pronounce them correctly. LOL I don't know if they spell them wrong or not because I can only read numbers and a few letters in their alphabet.