Thread: Despite families' pleas, O'Reilly slams VB

A Message from Chief Jacocks Regarding the Recent Drunk Driving Related Fatalities Involving an Undocumented Alien



First, I want to extend my personal sympathy to the Tranchant and Kunhardt families for the devastating tragedy that has and will continue to affect them. They remain in our thoughts and prayers.



I find it ironic that, had the intoxicated driver been born and raised in Virginia Beach, little notice would have been given to this senseless tragedy by either the media or the community at large.



We average approximately 9 alcohol related fatalities in the City each year, and the national death toll from drinking and driving in 2005 was 16,885.



The General Assembly has provided us with some of the toughest drunk/impaired driving laws and sanctions in the country, and the Virginia Beach Police Department has a long and impressive history of aggressively enforcing those laws that has earned us national and state recognition.



Unfortunately, few in the community other than the friends and families of victims of alcohol related crashes give this problem more than a passing thought.



I recognize that there is widespread frustration regarding a lack of adequate controls on immigration, and that emotions run high when two valuable members of a community have their lives senselessly and needlessly cut short.



Unfortunately, most who have been outspoken about this most recent, and all too common, tragedy have lost perspective and focus on what the teaching point actually is.



Tessa Tranchant and Alison Kunhardt were taken from their families and friends because the other driver was driving after consuming alcohol, not because he is illegally in the country.



It is important to recognize that the Code of Virginia, under Section 19.2-81.6, only gives local and state police the authority to charge someone as an illegal alien after they have been:

Previously convicted of a felony and

Previously deported or left the United States after such conviction and

Have reentered the United States and

Have been arrested again.

Even under those circumstances, we're only authorized to hold them for 72 hours.



I'm sure you are aware of the divergent opinions regarding local law enforcement's involvement, or lack thereof, in enforcing Federal immigration laws. Too many are trying to make Federal immigration issues a local police problem.



Following is an excerpt from our Department’s policy regarding the enforcement of Immigration laws:



Policy



The enforcement of the nation’s immigration laws is primarily the responsibility of the federal government. Accordingly, the Virginia Beach Police Department shall not undertake immigration-related investigations and shall not routinely inquire into the immigration status of persons encountered during police operations.



This prohibition does not preclude the Department from cooperating with federal immigration officials when requested, or from notifying those officials in serious situations where a potential threat to the public is perceived.



Inquiries into Immigration Status



A person’s right to file a police report, participate in police-community activities, or otherwise benefit from police services is not contingent upon citizenship or immigration status. Consequently, officers shall not question any person about his or her citizenship or immigration status or inform federal immigration authorities of the whereabouts or behavior of any immigrant or foreign visitor, unless that person:



1. Is arrested for any felony

2. Has been convicted of any felony, regardless of whether that felony involved violence

3. Is arrested for a terrorism-related offense, or is otherwise reasonably suspected of involvement in terrorism and/or subversive activities

4. Is arrested for any offense involving the entry or fraudulent assimilation of undocumented foreigners into the country, or is reasonably suspected of participating in an organized venture to bring or fraudulently assimilate undocumented foreigners into the country

5. Is reasonably suspected of participating in criminal street gang activity



Officers shall not request passports, visas, “green cards,” or travel documents in lieu of, or in addition to, driver’s licenses and similar standard forms of identification. Such documents shall only be requested

when standard forms of identification are unavailable, or when the officer is proceeding under the conditions described above.



This stance was crafted internally by the Police Department in July of 2004 and the formal policy was adopted by our Command Staff in September of 2005. Neither the Mayor nor anyone else on City Council had any input into this policy. The bottom line is, that as Chief of Police, it is my policy. It is also similar to polices of many other major city police departments.



The nearly universal opinion of the chiefs I've spoken to about this is consistent with mine, and that is that not only do we not have the capacity to do the Federal government's work in the area of immigration, we have no business doing so. This position is based upon several things, including 1) immigration violations are civil rather than criminal violations; 2) Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is both understaffed and under-funded, and typically does not respond to calls from local police who have undocumented aliens in custody unless the charges are major felonies or otherwise high profile. In fact, ICE has told us there is nothing they can do unless the individual is arrested for a felony. In the case of Mr. Ramos, we did notify ICE and they have issued a detainer for him; 3) there are a reported 12 million undocumented immigrants currently in the U.S. and another estimated 800,000 entering the country annually. As long as the nation's borders continue to be unsecured, the number of individuals illegally entering the country will exceed any number that ICE may be able to deport; 4) none of us want to be in a position where our officers, who are already over worked and stretched thin, are asking individuals whom they encounter on traffic stops or for minor law violations for their "papers" because the individual has an accent or a so called "non-American" sounding name; 5) the well accepted fact that undocumented aliens often come from countries where law enforcement authorities are abusive and corrupt, and as a result many of those individuals have a fear of, and no confidence in, the police. We know that undocumented aliens are often targeted by criminals, because they know such victims are less likely to report the crime to the police. My position is that when someone is the victim of a crime, it makes no difference where they are from or how they got here.



With the national, violent, crime rate climbing, our recruiting goals unfulfilled, our retention problems diminishing but not eliminated, and our authorized staffing less than what I believe it should be for a city with our population and dynamics, we are not in a position to devote police resources towards what is undeniably a Federal issue that no Congress or President in recent memory has identified as a matter deserving of the funds or manpower to adequately address.



We have gone to significant lengths with outreach to the Hispanic community in order to build trust and encourage them to report crimes if they are victimized. We have assured them that our officers will not inquire as to their immigration status unless they are suspected of being involved in one of the 5 activities enumerated above. This approach is not unique to Virginia Beach, but rather it is the norm among major cities I am familiar with.



I truly hope that those of you who take the time to read this have a clearer understanding of how multi-faceted this problem is. Lastly, for those of you who have decided to question whether or not our city is safe, suffice it to say that, according to the latest document released by the FBI – Crimes in the U.S. 2005 - Virginia Beach ranks number one as the “safest” city its size for cities with a population of 235,000 to 900,000. I attribute this to our active partnerships with the community and the efforts of the dedicated men and women of this department who strive daily to ensure that Virginia Beach remains a safe place for our citizens and visitors.


Contact Information:
Chief of Police
2509 Princess Anne Rd.
Municipal Center, Bldg. 11
Virginia Beach, VA 23456
Direct: (757) 385-4141
http://link.toolbot.com/vbgov.com/74722

We have gone to significant lengths with outreach to the Hispanic community in order to build trust and encourage them to report crimes if they are victimized. We have assured them that our officers will not inquire as to their immigration status unless they are suspected of being involved in one of the 5 activities enumerated above. This approach is not unique to Virginia Beach, but rather it is the norm among major cities I am familiar with.

Well! Aren't YOU such a wonderful guy, Chief!

You're certainly doing your JOB in protecting AMERICAN CITIZENS, aren't you?

You're a political ASS..........you're what our Troops call the enemy - a knucklehead of humongous magnitude.

Now I'm wondering what KICKBACKS you might be taking from the construction & hotel industries that has turned you into a fool?
One must wonder, considering you have NOT protected the Americans who pay your salary

You, sir, should be run out of town in SHAME.

I find it ironic that, had the intoxicated driver been born and raised in Virginia Beach, little notice would have been given to this senseless tragedy by either the media or the community at large.

I find it ironic that the chief of police would make such a moronic statement.

Tessa Tranchant and Alison Kunhardt were taken from their families and friends because the other driver was driving after consuming alcohol, not because he is illegally in the country.

These two young ladies were taken from their loved ones because the other driver was an illegal alien who was also driving drunk.

I would like to know what percentage of arrest in VB are illegal aliens. That right, they can't tell us because they don't ask to legal status.

Originally Posted by adam-k

HadEnuf -
There's nothing callous about my post. Their daughters were killed by a drunken driver. It's tragic. It's awful. But it's not a political issue. They've said that themselves. Again, no one seemed to have any problem with an ALIPAC "president/administrator" in this thread criticizing the families for not making time in their grief to get up on a soapbox and join your crusade.

Secondly, the point isn't that it's an unscientific poll. The point is, it doesn't matter how many polled folks think it's the mayor's fault. The fact is that in Va Beach's governmental setup, the mayor has basically no more power than any other council member and is not in charge of the police department (the city manager is). So if the mayor is a ceremonial position with no bearing over the police, why is O'Reilly right to single her out for attack about a police policy he doesn't like?

I also don't like the idea of the 300-mile fence. I don't know that I'd call it "un-American," but I don't think it solves anything and I think it would be a symbolic gesture. A gesture I wouldn't like.

Adam-K,

Allow me to set the record straight on a few things before you mock my comments and the comments of others on our site further.

Many of the people that I now consider friends, that inspired me to start ALIPAC, consider themselves lucky if they got a body part of their children back after 9/11.

In the 2.5 years I have been doing this I have heard from every type of crime victim. The only exception was the gang rape victims, but after a call that came in late one night about six months ago...

My heart goes out to all of these grieving families, but my main interest is doing all I can to stop the slaughter the next day. We are not winning yet, but I can at least say that I am doing all I can think of today to try and prevent tomorrow's 12-25 families that will be getting the dreaded call or knock on the door.

To lose a loved one to the criminal act of another person is the hight of human suffering. I too have lost loved ones that were taken from me by murder.

While each person is different, the one's I admire and support are the one's that clearly see how their suffering is the result of inaction by our government on its most basic and fundamental responsibilities and decide to fight back.

It has been both humbling and a great honor to provide any form of assistance to these grieving families that realize if someone had taken action beforehand their loved ones would still be with them.

The ones that want to stop this from happening to anyone else are making the right decision. It is the decision that looks outside of their own grief and represents compassion and concern towards others.

While I do not pretend I should dictate to anyone how they should grieve, this family throwing stones at O'reilly is wrong on their part. They chose to enter themselves into the political debate with their announcement.

Calling this politics is an understatement.

On one hand, the term is correct. But on the other, fighting like hell to protect our own families and others from this gross failure in our government structure is not just 'political'.

The Mayor of that city deserves full well to be questioned about her actions or inactions in this matter. We elect people to make sure things like this that can be prevented are prevented.

If this Mayor had done her job right, the police would have been under orders to do all they could to get this obvious hazard back to the nation of which he is a citizen of.

This family is paying the price of blood and tears because those that are not suffering have failed to do what the public expects them to do to protect us all.

Damn straight that each American has every right to be outraged and debating this case.

Zogby poll shows over 80% of Americans want local police to enforce immigration laws. I am experienced hand with polls from my career and I can tell you that when you rarely see a reading that high, you can tell the public does not just want this, they expect this and are shocked to find out local cops are not doing the job in many cases.

Hell, they have been letting illegal alien felons walk out of American prisons after serving taxpayer funded incarceration for murder, drug dealing, rape, etc... Right back on to American streets without deportation to murder and injure more Americans. We did not find out about this practice till 2005!

Thanks to those of us that are willing to fight and the families that are willing to take a stand for the protection of their neighbors and countrymen, the Feds and local governments are slowly starting to take more proactive actions.

Our hats are off to all of the Mayors, city council members, and police that have entered the 287(G) program!

So if this family wants to grieve their own way and does not come to the decision they want to help improve things to prevent others from suffering as they are, that is their decision.

But when they weigh in on the politics of the debate in a fashion that is designed to silence or diminish the efforts of those fighting back, they are wrong to do so.

They may wish that this had not happened and they may wish that it was not part of the national debate, I can understand that, but this is bigger than the family, the Mayor, and Bill Oreilly combined.

How many people have found ALIPAC and come here to thank us for what we are doing after their loved ones fell? I could not begin to count how many have posted here, e-mailed, or called us to thank us for our efforts on behalf of all Americans.

You are wrong to criticize the good hearted people on this site that care deeply for the victims, this nation, and have enough wits about them to realize people need to fight back instead of sobbing in the corner.

If you are too distressed and out of sorts to fight, then mourn as you must, but do not get in the way of those fighting to save the next stack of dead Americans compliments of the illegal aliens and their corporate and political sponsors.

This national crisis calls for many hard decisions and we must be strong and resolute as those before us were.

Sometimes, after working with these families, it makes it hard for me to sleep at night or to get out of bed the next morning myself. It is rough on me because I am by nature highly empathetic. I do it because someone needs to. I can see the danger to those I love through the suffering of others and lessons learned at their unfortunate expense.

I always keep my distance from the grieving families until they contact me or I see signs that they are starting to react like Emily Moose (Scott Gardner's mother), Stacy Koon (Faye Coleman's daughter), or Peter Gadiel of 9/11 FSA.

If they show symptoms of dealing with their grief by fighting to prevent this from happening to others, then I will approach them sometimes after that is made clear.

Peter Gadiel is my model for these observations. Getting to know Peter has taught me a lot.

I just tell them who we are, where we are at, and that we are here for them if they need or want our help.

We do not need their authorization or blessings to use their story to warn our fellow Americans and to pursue political change that leads to a more safe and secure America.

W

Latest Illegal Immigration Ploy
Monday, April 09, 2007 3:07 PM


Last Thursday, a report came out about Alfredo Ramos, an illegal alien with a criminal record. What did Mr Ramos do? He was driving drunk and killed 2 girls in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Here's the kicker: Ramos already had 3 previous alcohol-related convictions and an identity theft conviction, according to WAVY TV 10 out of Virginia. Pardon me for being rational, but the first thing that popped in my head was, "Why was he even here?". But wait, it gets better. According to the same Virginia news station, Ramos didn't receive ANY jail time for any of his four convictions. After reading this, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. I'll tell you who is definitely not laughing: the families of the two girls killed by Ramos.

Later that day, I saw the mayor of Virginia Beach on the news, one Meyera E. Oberndorf. Mayor Oberndorf was responding to accusations of Virginia Beach being a "sanctuary city" for illegals. What was the mayor's response? Something along the lines of being unaware that local legislators had passed any laws making Virginia Beach a sanctuary city. Did I hear that right? Are there actually cities in this country that pass legislation to give safe harbor to illegals? Let's break this down. First off, illegal immigration is...you guessed it: illegal. Therefore, passing laws to give safe harbor to illegals would seem to me to also be illegal. Is Mayor Oberndorf that stupid, or is there some kind of legal loophole I don't know about?

Geraldo Rivera and Bill O'Reilly had a very heated debate about the subject. O'Reilly claimed that it was an illegal immigration matter, while Rivera believed it was a drunk driving matter. I take the side of O'Reilly on this one. Sure, drunk driving is a terrible thing that has cost many lives. And if the girls had been killed by an American drunk driver, it would be only fitting that the drunk driver be tried for murder. But the point is, this would not have happened if Ramos had been deported the first time he committed a crime, which was when authorities figured out he was an illegal. Any day now, I expect the ACLU to slither into Virginia Beach to offer Ramos legal help. They will somehow claim his rights have been violated, even though illegals have no rights. If there's one thing the ACLU is good at, it's inventing rights. But that's another story for another day. I'm also sure the liberals will give me some kind of sob story about an oppressed minority alien that was just trying to make ends meet for his family. I won't buy it. Because of a soft stance on illegal immigration, two people are now dead. And it should make you furious to know that it would have been prevented had the illegal been deported when the authorities found out he was an illegal.

I will conclude this column by giving out two messages: one to Americans, and one to illegals. First, to the Americans. We must stand up and push for stronger immigration reform. It is ridiculous that things like this are happening because liberals don't understand the meaning of the word "illegal". Second, to the illegal immigrants. Pack up whatever you have and hitch a ride to Virginia Beach. You can get away with murder up there...literally.

http://straightshooting.townhall.com/



This is what our forefathers fought for?
Tuesday, April 10, 2007 5:07 PM


I'm kind of new here, so allow me to introduce myself. My name is Josh Lamb. I'm a junior at the University of Alabama. I recently joined the Marine Corps and will be leaving for Parris Island on May 14. There's a few reasons I decided to join the Corps. First of all, I like their motto: Honor, Courage, Commitment. I wanted all three of these to be attributes of my life. Second of all, and this is the selfish part...Marines are the best of the best. There is no greater warrior in the entire world, and I wanted to be a part of that. Perhaps the most important reason, however, is my love of country. I used to be in awe as I read stories of the men that came before me. I read of the capture of Iwo Jima, which is arguably the single most incredible feat of any group of soldiers in the history of warfare. I listened to World War II veterans replay the storming of Normandy. More recently, I've spoken with friends and family share their experiences of Iraq. Through all of this, I always thought, "I want to be one of these men. I want to be one of the few and the proud that can claim to have fought for their liberty and for the liberty of their countrymen".

Here's another reason I wanted to join, which will also be the topic of my discussion. I see the Marines as one of the last places in this country where I can be the patriot I want to be. Everywhere I look, liberalism has clouded the judgment and spirit of everyone. They've told us it's not OK to be patriotic anymore. They've told us it's not OK to be religious anymore. Well, it's not OK to be Christian...Muslims and scientologists and all those other whackos are in the clear. They've told us it's not OK to pray in school anymore. Apparently, it's not even OK to support the President or the military anymore. So what is OK? What is acceptable to these self-proclaimed "kings of tolerance"? Open borders, unfettered abortions, blaming America first, tax increases, etc... I hear loving France and other countries that hate us is also a prerequisite. Sounds like psycho-babble, right? Here's the horrifying part: politicians, judges, and legislators are listening. Every day it seems, the ACLU, with the help of America's courts, invents some new right that they apparently found buried in the Constitution. Yeah, I'm sure that's what the forefathers had in mind...a 250-year game of Constitutional hide-and-seek.

Also, as a conservative, you have no 1st Amendment rights. You must be a liberal to qualify for this right. If you enjoy flag burning, ultra-tolerant speech, America bashing, and political correctness, then the 1st Amendment just might apply to you. Don't dare preach your conservatism though, lest you be called a bigot and a racist...or even worse, intolerant of other different than yourself. Call me old fashioned, but I refuse to be tolerant of an entire people that spend their every waking minute thinking of how to destroy me. Every minute, except when they're praying to Allah. But they're probably asking their almighty Allah to guide their sword as they gut me.

While we're on the subject of free speech, let's talk about the ACLU for a moment. Having already sold their souls to the devil for one reason or another, it's no wonder the lawyers for this ultra-left organization go after Christianity with fire and zeal. The Bible is unconstitutional, the words "Merry Christmas" are unconstitutional, prayer in school is unconstitutional, putting murderers, rapists, and child molesters behind bars is unconstitutional, the death penalty is unconstitutional...I could go on for a while. I'd pay all I have to take one of these idiots back in time with me and throw them into the ring with Washington or Jefferson. The sad thing is, I will one day have to defend with my life the right of these idiots to do the things they do. I believe most of what they do is against the law, but until legislators and administrations figure that out, it will continue. And I will fight for it while they curse me from their ivory towers.

Thanks for reading this short rant, there will be more to come.

Semper Fi and God Bless.
http://straightshooting.townhall.com/[/b]

Originally Posted by ALIPAC

I'm so glad that Bill O'Reilly sees the light on this issue.

What is up with that family? I can't believe they are not enraged that their children were killed needlessly in a crime that should have been prevented.

That family and Mayor may not care, but the rest of America does. I guess they just want to grieve in silence instead of trying to help prevent this from happening to our loved ones.

Someone want to get us some e-mails for the Mayor and Bill O'Reilly so our supporters can send in their comments and opinions?

W

The family is grieving their loved ones. I can understand not wanting their names being used when you are in this state. They may be afraid of reprisals by OB groups also.

The fact is that we all grieve differently.

We each respond or react to the shock differently.

Each person moves through the grief process in their own time and in different ways.

This must all be respected and understood when trying to understand the parents who've lost a child under any circumstances.

Well said W.

Dixie

Final post, as I exit as a clearly unwanted interloper who dares to speak an opinion different from the flock ...

Do I "have a horse in this race?" I didn't answer the question because I didn't understand it. If you mean O'Reilly vs. Oberndorf, I would side with Oberndorf. He is acting as a bully and she is the wrong target to pick on ... a symbolic target at best, and one shouldn't go after a symbolic target in such a mean-spirited and personally insulting manner. If you mean in the larger immigration picture ... I'm not in favor of coddling illegals, nor do I consider them to be the Devil Incarnate. I think we need to overhaul our immigration policy, but I don't like that a lot of people seem to want to throw a big net over everyone they hear speaking Spanish. I think Alfredo Ramos is a scumbag, much more because he is a drunk who puts his love of alcohol before the lives of others.

2ndamenmentsis and ALIPAC - I did NOTHING to distort the mean-spirited words of that post. I was not quoting anything out of context; I quoted the specific passage in which ALIPAC criticized the families for not caring enough about this particular issue. Those aren't my words. I'm not paraphrasing. ALIPAC accused the families of not caring. To suggest this of people who had so recently lost their daughters is just unthinkable to me. You want to defend it? Be my guest. But ... speaking as someone from outside your insular group here ... it comes off as astonishingly cold-hearted. It comes off as though you're saying that these families should consider your political issue to be more important, or at least as important as, the loss of their beloved daughters. You ARE telling them how to grieve, or at least you're telling them that they're grieving in the wrong way.

Immigration in this country is a mess, but acting like the entire answer is "just deport them" is counterproductive. The answer to our nation's drug problem isn't "just say no," and the answer to teen pregnancy isn't to tell them "just wait for marriage," and the answer to illegal immigration isn't "just deport them." It's never that easy. Pretending that it is makes the problem worse.

I came to this forum by accident, and I'll admit, I never looked to see what ALIPAC meant or what the specific political leaning of the forum was. I thought it was a group of people interested in discourse, interested in the exchange of ideas. But I was wrong. It's a group of people who are only interested in people who agree with them. And that's counterproductive. I see the moderator stating that the families are grieving in the wrong way, but I'm told not to point that out. I post newspaper columns that would seem to contradict some of your points, and I'm told that it doesn't matter because ... um ... somehow the columnist intent on ripping the city intentionally left out the most damaging material, either that or she couldn't find it even though you guys could, or something like that. I am told repeatedly that there are quotes from Oberndorf ... "in her own words!" ... saying that she doesn't care about dead children and that she truly wants to keep illegal immigrants in her town, but I can't find anything like that. When I mentioned the heartless post about the families, you asked me to produce it and I did. I keep telling you that I can't find these phantom quotes from Oberndorf that you say are so damning, but no one seems to want to post them. You just keep telling me to keep looking. I've looked and I can't find them.

Anyways, I actually enjoyed some of our discussion, but in the end, I clearly don't belong here. Exit adam-k, stage left.

Adam

it seems that you are still on a mission to 'insinuate' rather than accept facts.

Example:
INSULAR-----hardly. Many of our folks, if not the majority here are at the ground zeros of this issue. They are certainly not INSULATED but are experiencing the effects of this travesty being perpetrated upon Americans.

DEPORT---- hardly. We prefer, as had been stated many times, Enforcing the Law and using self-repatriation as the first line of defense.

SYMBOL----your Mayor is a duly ELECTED OFFICIAL being paid by the American taxpayers whom she has neglected to protect. She is hardly a SYMBOL and you seem to be attempting to throw up a smoke screen for her benefit.

GRIEF ----- did you miss or simply ignore my last post?

My opinion, Adam, is that you have a particular agenda here and it isn't one of TRUTH & FACT finding.

However, you have certainly been an example of the problem and not of the solution. For that, I thank you. It helps me, at least, to see the bigger picture.