Thread: Enforcing Current Immigration Laws Will Recover Eight Millio

"If they're committing crimes against their own illegal alien community, well, that's a shame, but it's not our job to underwrite law enforcement protecting illegal aliens"

What about the following scenario: An illegal immigrant witnesses a murder involving an American citizen. He is afraid to tell the authorities because he will be deported. As a result, there is a murderer on the loose who, with that illegal immigrants testimony, would otherwise be detained and therefore make the community safer. Is the latter a phony concern for local law enforcement agencies?[/quote]

Originally Posted by Lstudent

"If they're committing crimes against their own illegal alien community, well, that's a shame, but it's not our job to underwrite law enforcement protecting illegal aliens"

What about the following scenario: An illegal immigrant witnesses a murder involving an American citizen. He is afraid to tell the authorities because he will be deported. As a result, there is a murderer on the loose who, with that illegal immigrants testimony, would otherwise be detained and therefore make the community safer. Is the latter a phony concern for local law enforcement agencies?

Yes, it is. Over 4,200 Americans are killed by Illegal Aliens every year. Half of those in traffic deaths and half of those in homicides. To believe that you need the testimony of illegal aliens to catch those criminals is not a valid argument not to deport illegal aliens. It is far better that the entire community of illegal aliens be deported, than it is to keep an entire community in the country that we know kills Americans. With the illegal alien community deported, you save the lives of over 4,000 Americans a year, you don't need the illegal aliens to squeal on each other, and law enforcement doesn't have to concern itself with the self-imposed dilemma of we a) do we deport potential witnesses or b) deport them all to c) catch a crook or killer.

Deport them all, then there is no dilemma. See how that works? We have thousands of unsolved murders in the US, and no one is laying down any other law to solve them, so it's completely il-logical and incongruous to lay down immigration law to solve those involving an illegal alien, when failing to enforce immigration law and deport illegal aliens is why these crimes occur in our country to begin with.

And 90% of the "crimes" local law enforcement is worried about are drug crimes to begin with. So we need to deport illegal aliens and legalize/regulate/tax under the FairTax the illegal drug trade and run it ourselves as a 100% owned and operated US citizen business. Doing the right things like enforcing US immigration law and ending the War on Drugs against US citizens solves all these contrived self-imposed dilemmas law enforcement in certain cities is fabricating to perpetuate both illegal immigration and an illegal drug trade.

Originally Posted by Lstudent

Two of those methods listed, "Employers refusing to retain or hire illegals" and "local law enforcement" are not likely to be uniform in their actions. For example, I live in Nassau County, New York. Recently, the police commissioner stated that they do not participate in enforcing the immigration laws because, by doing so, it negatively impacts their ability to carry out effective law enforcement. Concretely, the Commissioner stated that if the local police force enforced the immigration laws, the whole immigrant community(legal and illegal) will not cooperate with Law Enforcement in criminal investigations. Therefore, the community would be put at risk because criminals(not the border-crossing types) will be more difficult to apprehend.

The employer part is difficult, because, as you said, profit very well may come before "country".

So, it is safe to assume that many local law enforcement agencies will not cooperate with federal ICE authorities. Do you suggest local law enforcement be mandated to comply?

I love this argument. The old standby, we should disregard our immigration laws so that in the event an illegal invader witnesses a crime, they will be more likely to come forth and report it.

This is a circular argument because there is a substantial likelihood there would be less crime to report if in fact our immigration laws were enforced. This is especially true since the majority of illegal invaders reside in their own ethnic enclaves, thereby making it likely the crime they are going to witness was in fact committed by another illegal invader.

And YES...I absolutely suggest that local law enforcement be mandated to comply with our immigration laws!

No Bueno:

Can you show me empirical evidence to show the correlation between increased crime and the presence of Illegal Immigrants?

Originally Posted by Lstudent

No Bueno:

Can you show me empirical evidence to show the correlation between increased crime and the presence of Illegal Immigrants?

I don't have to show you any empircal evidence! Save that argument for your classroom! The fact of the matter is one crime committed by someone who is in this country illegally is a crime that should not have occured and could have been prevented!

Do you disagree?

Originally Posted by Lstudent

No Bueno:

Can you show me empirical evidence to show the correlation between increased crime and the presence of Illegal Immigrants?

The more people, the more crime. It's one of the reasons we control our population by controlling immigration. That's not to say that illegal aliens commit more crimes at a higher rate than Americans. Whether they do or not is irrelevant. The fact is they do commit crimes, our jails and prisons full of them are proof of it. But even if they didn't ever commit any crimes beyond breaching US immigration law, they still need to be deported because they aren't suppose to be here taking up space, stealing jobs, reproducing, shoving their kids into our schools, themselves into our hospitals, marching in our streets, driving drunk on our streets and highways, running drugs, raping women and children or any of the other things some of them do including committing murder.

Removing illegal aliens will reduce crime by the simple measure of reducing the population. We don't need their population. We already have far more of our own population than we can sustain successfully which is why we have 62 million Americans on MediCaid and SCHIP programs, because we have more people than jobs and jobs that pay wages sufficient to support them and their families. So, it makes no sense for Americans to be on poverty programs while illegal aliens roam free stealing their jobs because law enforcement might need a "witness" to solve a pot crime.

These phony excuses are il-logical, incongruous and against our laws. Why don't we stop enforcing all laws against Americans on the basis that we all might be a "witness" to a crime and none of us will report it, because hey, we're afraid if we talk to cops, cuz we might go to jail for something we did wrong. I don't hear any law enforcement officers claiming they should stop enforcing laws against US citizens because citizens are afraid if they provide testimony, they might be arrested for something else they did wrong.

These double-standard nonsensical excuses from law enforcement to perpetuate illegal immigration because they claim they might need an illegal alien as a witness to a crime no longer fly, Lstudent.

Besides, all that testimony is suspect anyway because they've been given a plea deal not to be deported in exchange for their "testimony" by the time it gets to court anyway. Americans are more concerned about the problems and costs of illegal immigration than they are unsolved crimes.

Just get them out of there. Deport them all.

I will concede that if you deport them all, the local law enforcement will no longer have a use for illegal immigrant testimony.

That still leaves us with the solution that "No Bueno" brings up: "Mandating Local law enforcement to enforce immigration laws". Any ideas on whether the fed gov't mandating local law enforcement is practically or legally feasible? For example, I believe a mandate may run into Constitutional problems.

Originally Posted by Lstudent

I will concede that if you deport them all, the local law enforcement will no longer have a use for illegal immigrant testimony.

That still leaves us with the solution that "No Bueno" brings up: "Mandating Local law enforcement to enforce immigration laws". Any ideas on whether the fed gov't mandating local law enforcement is practically or legally feasible? For example, I believe a mandate may run into Constitutional problems.

I disagree. There are a whole host of federal laws that local law enforcement has jurisdicition over initially. For example, bank robbery is a federal crime and yet no one would ever expect local law enforcement to disregard those crimes because they are prosecuted under federal law.

Same with illegal immigration. If a local law enforcement officer, during thr course of his regular duties, has probable cause to believe that someone is in this country illegally, he has the right to detain that individual until the proper agencies can be notified.

What's unconstitutional about that?

Originally Posted by Lstudent

I will concede that if you deport them all, the local law enforcement will no longer have a use for illegal immigrant testimony.

That still leaves us with the solution that "No Bueno" brings up: "Mandating Local law enforcement to enforce immigration laws". Any ideas on whether the fed gov't mandating local law enforcement is practically or legally feasible? For example, I believe a mandate may run into Constitutional problems.

Thank you, Lstudent.

As to "mandating" ... no one on this board is "mandating" local law enforcement enforce immigration laws. We're asking local law enforcement to use their authority under both the 287 (g) program as well as under USC Title 8, Chapter 12 ... section 1324 to use their resources to stop illegal immigration. As local enforcement officers, it's their duty to enforce all criminal laws and that includes arresting, detaining and deporting illegal aliens. We urge them to do their duty.

The only Sheriff, Police Chief of State Trooper Patrol operation who wouldn't want to enforce US immigration law and arrest and deport illegal aliens are those who have their hands in the cookie jar and are getting paid bribes and kickbacks by smugglers and drug dealers not to enforce immigration law.

It's up to the people of the local municipalities and counties to determine if they're law enforcement officials are enforcing our laws to their satisfaction. And if they aren't, then they need to elect a new Sheriff, get a new Police Chief or a new head of their State Highway Patrol who will. For those areas, it's the responsibility of ICE and the feds to clean it out, and if this Administration won't do it as others before it have refused to do, then we need to elect a new Administration that will.

Empirical evidence is useful outside of the classroom, as well, because it is a careful analysis of data and facts upon which policy is to be made(for example, immigration policy).

I don't disagree with the following statement: "The fact of the matter is one crime committed by someone who is in this country illegally is a crime that should not have occured and could have been prevented!"

However, I still think it is helpful to carefully analyze any potential correlation between presence of illegal immigrants and crimes. The opposite, for example, could be true: the presence of illegal immigrants actually decreases the crime rate. I am not saying the latter is true, but one must carefully draw conclusions based upon carefully conducted studies, not conclusory statements on a micro-scale.

In Nassau County, New York, statistics show that : "In recent decades crime has been cut in half while the Latino population has doubled in Nassau County"

Judy: "That's not to say that illegal aliens commit more crimes at a higher rate than Americans. Whether they do or not is irrelevant." It may be irrelevant to what you said following that:

"they still need to be deported because they aren't suppose to be here taking up space, stealing jobs, reproducing, shoving their kids into our schools, themselves into our hospitals, marching in our streets, driving drunk on our streets and highways, running drugs, raping women and children or any of the other things some of them do"

But, I was responding to No Bueno's post which claimed that: "This is a circular argument because there is a substantial likelihood there would be less crime to report if in fact our immigration laws were enforced."

To say that there is a substantial likelihood there would be less crime if the immigration laws were enforced is a conclusory statement that requires empirical support. There are many factors that affect how many crimes are committed, and as such, an analysis of those factors is required to support NoBueno's claim of a circular argument.