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  1. #21
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    The FairTax doesn't do away with tariffs. It does away with income-based taxes, specifically, payroll taxes for SS and Medicare, corporate income tax, personal income tax, capital gains tax, interest tax, dividend tax, gift and estate tax.

    John is wrong, the FairTax eliminates the huge IRS and creates a small bureau within the Treasury Department that collects 50 state FairTax reports per month from the 50 states.
    Judy, I am not wrong, and you know it.

    The alleged "FairTax" is intentionally designed to create two new tax collecting agencies, the “Excise Tax Bureau” … and a “Sales Tax Bureau”, not to mention it keeps the “Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms” open for business. In addition, the alleged FairTax keeps Congress' power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and other incomes alive under Congress' power to lay and collect internal excise taxes.

    Tell me Judy, why do you think the alleged fairtax creates an "Excise Tax Bureau"?


    Under the alleged fairtax, is it not true that Congress can lay and collect excise taxes calculated from profits and gains, such as the Corporate Excise tax of 1909? If Congress can, then your statement that the fairtax gets rid of income based taxes is not true. Corporations will still be subject to income based taxes in addition to the alleged fairtax.


    Additionally, is it not true that ordinary people who sell the property they have in their labor, will be subject to paying a tax to government based on the dollar amount of each sale? And, is it not also true that ordinary people will also pay a tax on the products they purchase? If this is true then ordinary people will be paying at least three taxes under the alleged fair tax: one on the sale of their labor; one on the products they purchase; and one on services they purchase. And this does not even take into account countless excise taxes Congress may dream up.

    Why do you not support actually tying Congress' hand with the Fair Share Balanced Budget Amendment which begins with the following 32 words?



    “SECTION 1. The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money.


    Tell me Judy, do the above words, unlike the fairtax, actually end "income-based taxes" which seems to be your objective?


    JWK



    “…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address
    Last edited by johnwk; 06-06-2018 at 08:00 AM.
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  2. #22
    MW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    Oh yes, most Republicans on ALIPAC support the FairTax, most Independents on ALIPAC support the FairTax, and even some Democrats on ALIPAC support the FairTax. Everyone with 2 live brain cells still connected supports the FairTax.


    And what evidence do you have to support that claim? I'd suggest to you that the posters on here are a fair representation of the lack of support the plan has. You may get a smidgen of support with your misinformation and ignoring of all the facts, but I've yet to see it here on ALIPAC.

    Contrary to what you said, I'd say most folks with "2 live brain cells still connected" that have done their own research oppose the unfair tax plan. The plan creates more problems than it fixes as anyone doing their research independent of your misinformation can tell. Furthermore, you only offer what you consider the positives to the plan and completely ignore the pitfalls of which there are many.

    You keep selling but I don't think anyone on here is buying. Perhaps it's time you stop advertising here and shop for a better market. Just a suggestion.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Judy, I am not wrong, and you know it.

    The alleged "FairTax" is intentionally designed to create two new tax collecting agencies, the “Excise Tax Bureau” … and a “Sales Tax Bureau”, not to mention it keeps the “Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms” open for business. In addition, the alleged FairTax keeps Congress' power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and other incomes alive under Congress' power to lay and collect internal excise taxes.

    Tell me Judy, why do you think the alleged fairtax creates an "Excise Tax Bureau"?


    Under the alleged fairtax, is it not true that Congress can lay and collect excise taxes calculated from profits and gains, such as the Corporate Excise tax of 1909? If Congress can, then your statement that the fairtax gets rid of income based taxes is not true. Corporations will still be subject to income based taxes in addition to the alleged fairtax.


    Additionally, is it not true that ordinary people who sell the property they have in their labor, will be subject to paying a tax to government based on the dollar amount of each sale? And, is it not also true that ordinary people will also pay a tax on the products they purchase? If this is true then ordinary people will be paying at least three taxes under the alleged fair tax: one on the sale of their labor; one on the products they purchase; and one on services they purchase. And this does not even take into account countless excise taxes Congress may dream up.

    Why do you not support actually tying Congress' hand with the Fair Share Balanced Budget Amendment which begins with the following 32 words?



    “SECTION 1. The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money.


    Tell me Judy, do the above words, unlike the fairtax, actually end "income-based taxes" which seems to be your objective?


    JWK



    “…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address
    We already have excise taxes and nothing about the FairTax changes those. The FairTax repeals income taxes, not excise taxes, not tariffs, not imposts, not duties.

    I have no problem with excise taxes. I have no problem with an excise tax bureau, I assume we already have one since we collect billions of dollars a year from them.

    The Fairtax repeals all income taxes. To claim otherwise is ridiculous. That's the whole point, purpose and outcome of the legislation. It doesn't repeal the 16th Amendment, so at some future time if the people want to return to the income tax or be taxed both ways like states do it, they have the right. However, there is a Sunset provision in the FairTax legislation that if the the separate legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment hasn't been ratified by the states, then Congress would have to reauthorize the FairTax or let it die and move to something else.

    FairTax supporters are confident that everyone will like the FairTax so much that the states after having a chance to experience it will ratify the repeal of the 16th Amendment. What state would want to be the spoiler of that?? I prefer the 16th Amendment be repealed, but it's not necessary to moving ahead to repeal and end the income tax laws and replace them with the FairTax.

    No person or corporation is subject to any income tax under the FairTax legislation. ALL income based taxes are repealed by the FairTax legislation.

    I understand you have a different plan that just bills the states for an amount of money and then the states come up with it however they choose. To me with income taxes in 43 states, most of them will use state income taxes to pay the federal bill, so that's just replacing federal tyranny with state tyranny which is why I oppose your plan.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MW View Post


    And what evidence do you have to support that claim? I'd suggest to you that the posters on here are a fair representation of the lack of support the plan has. You may get a smidgen of support with your misinformation and ignoring of all the facts, but I've yet to see it here on ALIPAC.

    Contrary to what you said, I'd say most folks with "2 live brain cells still connected" that have done their own research oppose the unfair tax plan. The plan creates more problems than it fixes as anyone doing their research independent of your misinformation can tell. Furthermore, you only offer what you consider the positives to the plan and completely ignore the pitfalls of which there are many.

    You keep selling but I don't think anyone on here is buying. Perhaps it's time you stop advertising here and shop for a better market. Just a suggestion.
    What evidence do I have? Common sense, Intelligence, Loyalty to our people and businesses, Trump Supporters and Cruz Supporters. There are very few Republicans who don't support the FairTax and they are either the people who work in the federal income tax business, they don't understand how the FairTax works, or they're mandate authoritarians who want the government to spy on our citizens and give handouts to non-citizens. At this point, there's very few of those, most of them older white males.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    What evidence do I have? Common sense, Intelligence, Loyalty to our people and businesses, Trump Supporters and Cruz Supporters. There are very few Republicans who don't support the FairTax and they are either the people who work in the federal income tax business, they don't understand how the FairTax works, or they're mandate authoritarians who want the government to spy on our citizens and give handouts to non-citizens. At this point, there's very few of those, most of them older white males.
    Your generic response and obfuscation does not answer my question.

    I said, "
    Judy, out of curiosity, have you found anyone here on ALIPAC that supports your 'unfair' tax plan?"

    You said, "
    Oh yes, most Republicans on ALIPAC support the FairTax, most Independents on ALIPAC support the FairTax, and even some Democrats on ALIPAC support the FairTax. Everyone with 2 live brain cells still connected supports the FairTax."

    So, instead of obfuscating the question with the response "Common sense, Intelligence, Loyalty to our people" blah, blah, blah. How about answering the actual question!

    Once again I ask you, what evidence do you have that most ALIPAC members support your so-called fair tax plan?

    You made the claim, now back it up with hard data, please.


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  6. #26
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    I don't have any hard-data. I'm not aware of any hard data poll conducted by ALIPAC about the FairTax. I can't imagine ALIPACERS in particular not supporting the FairTax because if for nothing else, the enormous contribution the FairTax makes towards ending illegal immigration.

  7. #27
    MW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    I don't have any hard-data. I'm not aware of any hard data poll conducted by ALIPAC about the FairTax. I can't imagine ALIPACERS in particular not supporting the FairTax because if for nothing else, the enormous contribution the FairTax makes towards ending illegal immigration.


    Okay, then you shouldn't attempt to pass something off as fact when you don't actually know that it is. If you would have stated your position as opinion, I wouldn't have really had much of an argument other than to say, I disagree.

    Let this be one of those learning moments. In the future don't attempt to pass something off as fact unless you have evidence to prove your claim.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    It doesn't repeal the 16th Amendment, so at some future time if the people want to return to the income tax or be taxed both ways like states do it, they have the right.
    Judy's myth #1. Income tax was not imposed by the will of the people. It started with a Supreme Court decision, which opened the door for Congress to impose it on the people! As long as the 16th Amendment remains, Congress can impose more of the same. They didn't do it with the will of the people the first time, so it is foolish to think Congress wouldn't do that again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy
    However, there is a Sunset provision in the FairTax legislation that if the the separate legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment hasn't been ratified by the states, then Congress would have to reauthorize the FairTax or let it die and move to something else.
    Just like NAFTA was so easy to back out of? Just like the U.S. could back out of the Iran deal, and all of the sanctions would "snap back"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy
    FairTax supporters are confident that everyone will like the FairTax so much that the states after having a chance to experience it will ratify the repeal of the 16th Amendment.
    Yes, those like you are confident, but not the majority of Americans, which is what counts!

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy
    No person or corporation is subject to any income tax under the FairTax legislation.
    But they are under the 16th Amendment, which is constitutional law, not legislative action by Congress. Unless such "FairTax" is an Amendment replacing the 16th Amendment, it is potentially just another tax, in spite of your desires for it to be a replacement.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    I don't have any hard-data.
    It's just Judy's dream!

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy
    I'm not aware of any hard data poll conducted by ALIPAC about the FairTax.
    I suppose you could put up a poll. But then, how many would volunteer their party affiliation? It wouldn't be a reliable poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy
    I can't imagine ALIPACERS in particular not supporting the FairTax because if for nothing else, the enormous contribution the FairTax makes towards ending illegal immigration.
    How does the different method of taxation end "illegal immigration" (trespassing)? I guess you could argue that it forces them to pay taxes like citizens and legal aliens do. But that would just legitimize their being here. It would not deter them. Another unsupported claim!

  10. #30
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post

    No person or corporation is subject to any income tax under the FairTax legislation. ALL income based taxes are repealed by the FairTax legislation.
    Judy, you are not being honest in saying that.


    If the alleged fairtax were passed, is it not true that Congress can still lay and collect excise taxes calculated from profits and gains, such as the Corporate Excise tax of 1909?

    Additionally, is it not true that ordinary people who sell the property they have in their labor, will be subject to paying a tax to government based on the dollar amount of each sale?


    The fact is, the answer to both question is yes, and that means people and corporations will still be subject to income based taxes which are taxes calculated from money received.


    JWK
    Last edited by johnwk; 06-07-2018 at 09:08 AM.
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