Thread: President Trump’s tax plan keeps the socialist communist progressive income tax alive

johnwk, slavery was a states rights issue, not a federal one. We fought the bloodiest war Americans have ever fought to end the right of states to enslave our people. You want to substitute state income and property tax slavery for the federal income tax, I oppose that 100%. If I had a choice between your plan and the existing federal income tax, I would stay with the income tax. But I have a choice to support a better plan, the FairTax plan. I'm all in for the FairTax for all the right reasons.

And honestly, quoting a slave owner about not taking the bread from the mouth of labor? Seriously?!!!

Geez.

Oh and by the way since it appears you do not know this, Thomas Jefferson didn't have anything to with our US Constitution, didn't attend or participate in the Convention that produced the US Constitution. He was involved in the Declaration of Independence, not the US Constitution.

Originally Posted by Judy

johnwk, slavery was a states . . .

Your deflection from discussing the alleged fairtax and what I have posted in response to your claims is noted. Has my documentation and reasoning finally overwhelmed you, and why you now want to talk about states rights?

LOL!! Yes, that's it, you brilliance quoting slave owners from the 1700's who weren't even involved with the US Constitution has "overwhelmed" me. Let me summarize it for you, I don't like your plan, I don't want your plan. I prefer the FairTax for all the right reasons. I hate state income tax as much as I hate federal income tax. I abhor state and local property taxes. Unless states under your plan were required to use a uniform sales tax to collect their "'share", I want nothing to do with it. A sales tax is not a direct tax, it's an indirect tax. The original tax plan was the plan they used, excises, imposts, duties and tariffs, which are taxes on transactions, just like a sales tax.

I'm all in for the FairTax so being nice to you as I've been and addressing your posts as I've done are now best left to someone else, so consider me totally "deflected" from youru posts on taxes.

FairTax is Rising and will be the law of land, very very soon.

Originally Posted by Judy

LOL!! Yes, that's it, you brilliance quoting slave owners from the 1700's who weren't even involved with the US Constitution has "overwhelmed" me. .

So now you have joined those who attack our founding fathers as "slave owners". Is that how you defend the alleged "fairtax"?

If you were so enraged over slavery, you would never support a federal taxing system which taxes Mary and Joe Sixpack on the exercise of an inalienable right ___ the right to sell the property each has in their own labor.

Tell us, Judy, why do you want to enslave Mary and Joe Sixpack and make them slaves to our federal government by compelling them to spend a portion of their lives each month filling out and filing fairtax returns and paying a tax on the exercise of an inalienable right, which is the right to sell the property they have in their own labor?

There is no essential difference between the fairtax and the communist/socialist/progressive income tax when it comes to taxing the sale of property working people have in their own labor. Have you forgotten what was said in POLLOCK v. FARMERS' LOAN &TRUST CO., 157 U.S. 429 [1895]?

”If, by calling a tax indirect when it is essentially direct, the rule of protection could be frittered away, one of the great landmarks defining the boundary between the nation and the states of which it is composed, would have disappeared, and with it one of the bulwarks of private rights and private property."


Why do you insist on taxing the sale of property which working people have in their own labor?


JWK


"The property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands; and to hinder him from employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property."___ Butchers’ Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1884)

Judy,

I am disappointed in you. You always find a way, whenever possible, to inject the "fairtax" into a discussion to tell us how great it is. And now that I decided to accommodate you, and want to engage in a fact finding and sincere discussion, you seem to get agitated and leave.

But, just for the record, Judy, when I first heard a spokesperson on a radio talk show many, many years ago selling it, it sounded like a great idea. However, when I finally found the actual proposed legislation and studied it page by page, I realized it was far different from the presentation given on talk radio. In fact, I came to the conclusion that if the legislation were ever signed into law, Congress would maintain its current power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains and other "incomes" in addition to assuming a power to lay two new taxes: an across to board tax on articles of consumption; and a tax upon the sale of labor.

Additionally, I learned while the IRS may eventually be closed down, the fairtax would create two new tax collecting agencies: an “Excise Tax Bureau” and the “Sales Tax Bureau", in addition to keeping the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms alive which will also be collecting taxes.

I also learned that businesses and individuals subject to the fairtax would have to start filling out and filing fairtax returns every month ___ that's twelve times a year!

And if that were not enough to make some recoil from the proposal, the "fairtax" would also create another entitlement called the "family consumption allowance", which is a monthly check sent to every household in America allowing the purchase of a rationed amount of tax-free necessities of life.

Finally, as I previously pointed out, Judy, when applied to individuals like Mary and Joe, ordinary working people, the “fairtax” imposes a federal tax upon the exercise of an inalienable right of mankind ___ the inalienable right to sell the property every individual has in their own labor. And with respect to this kind of legislation, one which impinges upon a fundamental right, the Court has stated:

A legislative act which "impinges upon a fundamental right explicitly or implicitly secured by the Constitution is presumptively unconstitutional." See: Harris v. McRae United States Supreme Court (1980) Also see City of Mobile v. Bolden, 466 U.S. 55, 76, 100 S.Ct. 1490, 64 L.Ed.2d 47 (1980)

We need to look at the alleged ‘’fairtax’’ for what it really is, and not accept the sales pitch we have been given, Judy.

Sincerely,

JWK

“…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address

I don't support plumbers who moonlight and undercut their employers. SORRY!

I don't care if Mary has to file a monthly FairTax report to babysit or rake leaves, because she's PAID TO DO IT.

Of course there's a small bureau to read and process the 50 state FairTax returns submitted each month. 500 people can do it versus the present day 100,000 IRS agents.

I support Excise Taxes, that's how we pay for our roads and highways through gas taxes, which are EXCISE TAXES.

I'm not anti-government, I'm anti-income and property tax.

Originally Posted by Judy

I don't support plumbers who moonlight and undercut their employers. SORRY!

What on earth does that have to do with the alleged fairtax?

Originally Posted by Judy

I don't care if Mary has to file a monthly FairTax report to babysit or rake leaves, because she's PAID TO DO IT.

But this is just like what we now have, and even worse since it must be done every freaken month!

And who determines the value of Mary’s labor being commandeered by our federal government? Is it Mary, or is it our federal government who arbitrarily determines how much she shall be paid for filling out fairtax returns and keeping any records and reports Congress may dream up?

And how do you justify allowing our federal government to enter a State and impose a tax upon the exercise of Mary’s inalienable right to sell the property she has in her own labor? With regard to this issue ___ impinging upon a fundamental right ___ the Court has stated:

A legislative act which "impinges upon a fundamental right explicitly or implicitly secured by the Constitution is presumptively unconstitutional." See: Harris v. McRae United States Supreme Court (1980) Also see City of Mobile v. Bolden, 466 U.S. 55, 76, 100 S.Ct. 1490, 64 L.Ed.2d 47 (1980)

Originally Posted by Judy

Of course there's a small bureau to read and process the 50 state FairTax returns submitted each month. 500 people can do it versus the present day 100,000 IRS agents.

Surely you jest, Judy!

50 state fairtax returns will amount to at least 250 million returns. The number of taxpayers does not diminish under the alleged fairtax. The amount of “sales tax” agents will be pretty close to the number of IRS Agents we now have, and maybe even more since the fairtax creates two different types of tax: a tax upon the sale of articles of consumption and a tax upon the sale of labor. And this doesn’t even take into account the “Excise Tax Bureau” which is another tax collecting agency created under the alleged “fairtax”

Originally Posted by Judy

I support Excise Taxes, that's how we pay for our roads and highways through gas taxes, which are EXCISE TAXES.

I too support the use of federal excise taxes, but only as our founders intended them to be used.

Originally Posted by Judy

I'm not anti-government, I'm anti-income and property tax.

Then why do you support our federal government using its power to tax Mary on the sale of property which she has in her own labor? Why do you support taxing the exercise of an inalienable right of mankind ___ the right to sell the property which every working person has in their own labor?

The fact is, as I previously pointed out, the alleged fair tax is essentially the same as the socialist income tax in that it taxes the sale of property which every working person has in their own labor.

JWK

“…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address

In one of your posts you were pity partying the plumber Joe Sixpack who does plumbing work on the side in the "neighborhood" having to file a FairTax report on the taxes he collects selling his services behind his employer's back. No Mary is NOT PAID now to file an income tax return or a sales tax return in her state. The FairTax system PAYS the retailers who collect the tax a fee to collect the FairTax and file the monthly report. What do you mean you don't know how much a retailer is paid to collect the FairTax???? It's IN THE LEGISLATION YOU CLAIM YOU READ PAGE TO PAGE. The fee is a credit off the FairTaxes collected, the greater of $200 a month or 1/4 of 1% of the taxes collected, not to exceed 20% of the total taxes collected.

I have absolutely so problem at all in taxing retail customers and consumers of retail businesses to support our federal government, whether it's a big corporation, a small business or a part-time individual vendor. It's 3 figures. Gross sales figure, 23% of gross sales figure for the FairTax, and the credit amount for their fee as compensation for the service they are providing in collecting the tax and filing the monthly report with the taxes they collected, less their fee. If you own property and rent it out to consumers, not businesses, you'll be required to collect a FairTax and include those rents on your monthly FairTax report.

No honest Joe and Mary Sixpack is going to complain about this, because every honest and compliant Joe and Mary Sixpack are today under the present system required to pay 15.30% of every dime they earn selling the "property of their labor" just in self-employment taxes on their baby-sitting and plumber moonlighting jobs in addition to federal income taxes in addition to collecting and filing state sales taxes on all products and services they sell that are covered by those state sales tax laws and they have to file state sales tax reports every month and file and pay their self-employment and estimated income taxes every quarter and no one pays you for that.

So anyone upset with filing a simple report to send in the Fairtaxes they collected that month from their customers, a task they are paid for out of the FairTaxes their customers paid, is probably someone who hasn't been complying with all the state and federal tax laws today, because by comparison, the total taxes involved are much lower, the paperwork is much easier and the time involved to do it is much less, and not only does it not come out of the pockets of "labor", it comes out of the pockets of their customers, they are also paid by those customers and the FairTax system for the service they are providing for collecting the tax and filing the report and taxes they collected less their fee for the service.

In exchange, the whole country, everyone, is free of all federal income taxes including corporate income tax, individual income tax, payroll taxes on labor, self-employment taxes, dividend taxes, interest income taxes, estate taxes, dividend taxes, capital gains taxes and gift taxes. To me, to be free of all that for everyone in exchange for a national retail sales tax on new goods and services that requires only retail businesses to file a simple 3 figure report when 1 of the 3 figures is their compensation for filing their monthly FairTax report is truly one of the great blessings of liberty promised in the preamble of the US Constitution.

And when it passes, it will run so smoothly and easily, the states and local governments will say, geez, that's a truly great system, and they will jump on board and have their own state and local FairTaxes and rid the states of their own crazy tyranny that not only includes income taxes but the evil horrendous property tax as well. And it won't take very long either.

Furthermore, for the limited government folks, every American will be able see with every purchase they make every day, the cost of government which may cause them to pause and say "damn, we got too much government." And we do. We need government and plenty of it to do all the things that we as individuals can't do or don't want to do, but we have too much government that's doing things we don't want it to do and don't need it to do, and when people see that total cost with every purchase, that's when Americans will be able to truly pull the plug on so much of this government waste of our money doing things we don't support at costs we can't afford.

But you go ahead and fight the FairTax over a monthly sales sales report that is already law in 45 states, johnwk. That's your choice, and you're not alone, there's lots of Anti-FairTax people out there. So far, all they've accomplished is maintained the status quo of the federal income tax for what is to me the pettiest of reasons, while Rome burns with tyranny, authoritarianism, poverty, insolvency and public debts so large no one even knows what it means any more.

Originally Posted by Judy

In one of your posts . . .

So now, instead of having a conversation and responding to my written words, you deflect and post a long winded rant which avoids addressing what I wrote.


I still would like to know how do you justify allowing our federal government to enter a State and impose a tax upon the exercise of Mary’s inalienable right to sell the property she has in her own labor?

As I previously pointed out with regard to this issue ___impinging upon a fundamental right ___ the Court has stated:

A legislative act which "impinges upon a fundamental right explicitly or implicitly secured by the Constitution is presumptively unconstitutional." See: Harris v. McRae United States Supreme Court (1980)Also see City of Mobile v. Bolden, 466 U.S. 55, 76, 100 S.Ct. 1490, 64 L.Ed.2d47 (1980)

The fact is, there is no essential difference between the fairtax and the socialist inspired income tax which we now have in that each taxes the sale of property which every working person has in their own labor.


JWK

"The property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands; and to hinder him from employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property." ___Butchers’ Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1884)

Mary does not have an "inalienable" right to be free from federal taxation. Where did you get such a stupid idea to begin with? If she chooses to work as a retail business entrepreneur, then under the FairTax her labor is tax free because it's exempt under the FairTax, her sale of service to the public consumers is not, the public consumer is charged a FairTax on their purchase of her services, no different than if they were buying a lawnmower. Mary doesn't pay it, she collects it and is compensated for it. No laborer is taxed at all under the FairTax, whereas all laboreres are taxed under the present federal income tax.

Let me simplify this for you since you seem very lost and confused on ... everything.

1. Under the FairTax - ZERO LABOR IS TAXED

2. Under the income tax - ALL LABOR IS TAXED TWICE, once for federal income tax and again for federal SS payroll taxes

I prefer 1 over 2.

End of story.