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Thread: President Trumpís tax plan keeps the socialist communist progressive income tax alive

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  1. #51
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    Mary does not have an "inalienable" right to be free from federal taxation.
    Now you are trying to be cute Judy. We are not talking about anyone trying to be free from federal taxation. We are talking about a specifically proposed federal tax ___ the alleged fairtax ___ a tax which is essentially the same as the socialist inspired income tax which we now have, and proposes to tax the sale of property which every working person has in their own labor.


    JWK

  2. #52
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Labor is not property, whether it's your own or someone else's. The FairTax doesn't tax labor, whether it's your own or someone else's. The FairTax taxes consumers who choose to buy new products and services from retail businesses, whether the products are made or the services provided by robots or someone's hands. I know what I want, I know what I like, I want the FairTax because I like how it works and I like what it does. I will have to file a monthly FairTax report, and I have no objection or issue with that at all, because I would much prefer to file a simple monthly FairTax report and be paid for the service on the small portion of my activity that's subject to the FairTax, than file income tax returns and reports on all my activities.

    Therefore, since you do not, I can only conclude that if you do not want to do that minimal work for which you are paid to do through the FairTax system, that you want to be free from federal taxation. You claim in your posts you have no objection to excise taxes, or filing those reports, which are no different at all than filing the FairTax report which is actually much easier and simpler than excise tax reports because FairTax is a flat single rate for all products and services whereas the Excise Tax varies for each product, service or privilege subject to the excise tax. Most retail excise taxes will be phased out once the FairTax passes, because they won't be needed any longer.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    Labor is not property. . . .

    You opinion is noted. But, as our Supreme Court has pointed out:


    "The property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands; and to hinder him from employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property."___ Butchersí Union Co. v. Crescent City., 111 U.S. 746 (1884)

  4. #54
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    That case is about a state legislature, Louisiana, allowing local governments to designate a sole slaughterhouse the exclusive right to the market. It was an anti-monopoly anti-competition case that ruled Louisiana's constitution and the enabling legislation violated the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution. It had nothing to do with taxation or the Founder's original constitution. It was the early days of attempts by state and local governments to figure out how to protect the health and safety of the public. While the butchers won and the law was struck down, they did not prevail on the issue of health and safety as we know. Governments have the authority to enact laws that regulate practices to ensure food is safe and the waste and by-products don't contaminate surrounding property (injury to the neighbor) but the manner in which they do it must afford equal protection to all the businesses (hands) they regulate.
    Last edited by Judy; 01-04-2018 at 12:22 AM.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    That case is about a state legislature . . .
    Yes. It is Judy, but you digress. And contrary to your opinion, the Court confirms a person's own labor is their "property". I know socialists, communists, and progressives do not believe a person's labor is their property, and that is proven by their support for an income tax, which in fact taxes the property every working person has in their own labor, just like the "fairtax" taxes the sale of labor Mary and Joe have in their own labor.


    JWK


    “…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address

  6. #56
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    I agree with the court's decision in the Butchers Union Co. case, which is totally unrelated to our tax discussion by the way, but I completely disagree with the thought or belief that labor is property, whether your own or someone else's. The plaintiff in the Butchers Union Co. case was a business. If you want to think of yourself or others as property of a business, that is up to you, but I do not. Labor is part of a business, but it is not property of a business, whether your own or someone else's. There was a time in our history when many elements of our society, law and finance especially, who considered some labor as property of a business, such as slaves and indentured servants, and were treated by business owners as property and were recognized by banks as property collateral, but that all changed nationwide with the 13th Amendment. But even during the period prior to the 13th Amendment, unless you were one of the unfortunate indentured servants or slaves, you weren't considered or treated as property.

    Personally, I don't think using this old slave day reference to labor as property is a good angle for your plan. You'll wake up one day and the states will be sending you a property tax bill on yourself and all your workers in addition to sales tax bills on your gross receipts and income tax on your net profits, gains, interest and net income.
    Last edited by Judy; 01-04-2018 at 10:24 AM.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    . . . I completely disagree with the thought or belief that labor is property . . .

    Then you would disagree with our nation's founding principles! It appears to me you only disagree that labor is property because you support the alleged fairtax which taxes working people on the sale of the property each has in their own labor, just like the socialist, communist, progressive income tax does.



    In any event, see The Fruits of One’s Labor, and then get back to me.

    JWK
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Then you would disagree with our nation's founding principles! It appears to me you only disagree that labor is property because you support the alleged fairtax which taxes working people on the sale of the property each has in their own labor, just like the socialist, communist, progressive income tax does.



    In any event, see The Fruits of One’s Labor, and then get back to me.

    JWK
    Yes, I disagree with several of our "founding principles". The right for women to vote should have been established in the Constitution and not let up to the states. Slavery should have been banned and states and participants prosecuted and punished on a federal level. And no, I've never agreed with the concept of referring to labor as property, never heard it used in any professional legal business in my lifetime. You only find it from time to time in old lawyers talk from long, long ago, and I've always found it wrong and obnoxious, long before there was a FairTax.

    Your issue seems to be the taxing of services instead of just products, at least that's what you harp on. Because of the nature of our free enterprise system, if you only tax products and not services also, you are favoring services at the expense of production and that is unfair to production based retailers. That's why both new products and services are attached so all the final point of sale businesses collect the tax from all consumers of both new products and services. There is no justification at all for someone who sells candy and decorations from their retail store to have to collect FairTax while the plumbing and daycare retail businesses do not. What is fair about that? Both are businesses selling to consumers, why would you charge one group of consumers a consumption tax and not the others?
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