Thread: Bank of America offering credit cards to illegal immigrants

Originally Posted by cvangel

B of A says this would be a means for building credit. Does anyone know how without an SS# one builds credit? On what number would B of A report to a credit agency the status of an account?

The ITIN.

Sorry guys, it was late last night and I was tired. Here are the correct urls:

www.bankofamericaboycott.com
www.bankofamericaboycott.us
www.bankofamericaboycott.org
www.bankofamericaboycott.info
www.bankofamericaboycott.biz

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by JuneS_Reston

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Hmm... That's new information (about an ITIN being required in lieu of an SSN). Has anyone verified that? If that's true, then the ONLY reason for these accounts would be for illegals, and the program would be of no benefit to Americans who don't want a number.

B of A sent me an email and confirmed that an ITIN is required. IRS states that an ITIN is issued for the sole purpose of enabling individuals who do not qualify for Social Security numbers to meet their tax filing responsibilities. ITINS are not valid for identification outside the tax system.

ITINs do not:

• Authorize an individual to work in the US
  Endorse an individual's legal status in this country, or
  Entitle an individual to Social Security benefits or the Earned Income Tax Credit.

Other than reporting interest to the Federal Government, this document serves no useful purpose for B of A, unlike a Social Security number which is used for all the things an ITIN is not.

Here's a little secret for you that I got DIRECTLY from the IRS: The SSN, ITIN, TIN, and the number provided to religious objectors such as the Mennonites are all issued by the same office and have exactly the same purpose. The distinctions are artificial. What they are is not "tax numbers," but rather franchise numbers. Each franchised entity may be collateralized by the federal corporation. The number differ only in to whom they are issued. The SSN is issued to "individuals" (which refers to so-called individual franchises - which is the status you are claiming when you apply for one). The TIN is issued to business organizations, including sole proprietorships, partnerships, trusts and corporations. The ITIN is provided to non-domestics who seek domestic status but whose status has not been finalized, or for domestics who for one reason or another cannot or do not wish to obtain the SSN. The ITIN is actually the number issued to Mennonites, Amish and other religious objectors though it is usually referred to as the "alternate tax indentification."

So the notion that the SSN is somehow different than these other numbers is patently absurd. They are issued by the same agency under the same conditions and have the same legal effect. Each is a federal charagma conferring federal franchise status and reguiring remittance of duties. Each also allows access to specific federal benefits paid from the same general fund.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

http://www.usvisanews.com/articles/memo2128.shtml

When I first came here I had an ITTIN as I was married to a resident and going to school here to remain here legally while waiting for the immigration process. What it said on the document that it was to be used for tax purposes only. Then it says: "Issuance of the ITTIN does not create any inference regarding your immigration status or your right to work in the United States."
I will scan the document in my other computer and then be able to show what the entire document says. I am currently using my laptop.

[quote=JuneS_Reston][quote=CrocketsGhost][quote="JuneS_Reston":2ujxpk3a][quote=CrocketsGhost]Hmm... That's new information (about an ITIN being required in lieu of an SSN). Has anyone verified that? If that's true, then the ONLY reason for these accounts would be for illegals, and the program would be of no benefit to Americans who don't want a number.[/quote]

B of A sent me an email and confirmed that an ITIN is required. IRS states that an ITIN is issued for the sole purpose of enabling individuals who do not qualify for Social Security numbers to meet their tax filing responsibilities. ITINS are not valid for identification outside the tax system.

ITINs do not:

[list]Authorize an individual to work in the US
Endorse an individual's legal status in this country, or
Entitle an individual to Social Security benefits or the Earned Income Tax Credit.[/list]

Other than reporting interest to the Federal Government, this document serves no useful purpose for B of A, unlike a Social Security number which is used for all the things an ITIN is not.[/quote]

Here's a little secret for you that I got DIRECTLY from the IRS: The SSN, ITIN, TIN, and the number provided to religious objectors such as the Mennonites are all issued by the same office and have exactly the same purpose. The distinctions are artificial. What they are is not "tax numbers," but rather franchise numbers. Each franchised entity may be collateralized by the federal corporation. The number differ only in to whom they are issued. The SSN is issued to "individuals" (which refers to so-called individual franchises - which is the status you are claiming when you apply for one). The TIN is issued to business organizations, including sole proprietorships, partnerships, trusts and corporations. The ITIN is provided to non-domestics who seek domestic status but whose status has not been finalized, or for domestics who for one reason or another cannot or do not wish to obtain the SSN. The ITIN is actually the number issued to Mennonites, Amish and other religious objectors though it is usually referred to as the "alternate tax indentification."

So the notion that the SSN is somehow different than these other numbers is patently absurd. They are issued by the same agency under the same conditions and have the same legal effect. Each is a federal charagma conferring federal franchise status and reguiring remittance of duties. Each also allows access to specific federal benefits paid from the same general fund.[/quote]

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

[url="http://www.usvisanews.com/articles/memo2128.shtml"]http://www.usvisanews.com/articles/memo2128.shtml[/url][/quote:2ujxpk3a]

That's just typical IRS wordplay, and I will explain why. Here's the relevant portion of your link:

According to the IRS (Internal Revenue Service) an ITIN does not:

Entitle the recipient to Social Security benefits or the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).
Create an inference regarding the individual's immigration status.
Give the individual the right to work in the U.S.
Qualify as a valid identification document outside the tax system.

First, one does not get Social Security benefits. However, under the pending totalization agreement with Mexico and other countries, the benefits would accrue (though they would not be called Social Security Benefits). Illegals using ITINs are able to get food stamps and other benefits. All come out of the general fund - contrary to popular belief there is no set-aside for SS, and that fact is made clear within the Social Security Act itself.

Second, I never said that the ITIN, or the SSN for that matter, creates and inference as to immigration status. If you read the list of individuals eligible to obtain an SSN included in your link, you will see that this is a red herring because people of various immigration status may obtain an SSN.

Third, neither does an SSN give a person the right to work in the US. Citizenship gives a person the right to work in the US, but citizenship is not tied to the SSN or vice versa. Another word game.

Fourth, as far as valid identification outside the tax system, the same is true of the SSN in a legal sense. As a matter of fact, a stipulation of the SSN upon passage of the Social Security Act was that it could not be used for identification purposes. The disclaimer used to even appear right in the card.

Again, I have delved far deeper into the whole federal charagma thing than have most people, and because of my status I have had to get it right.

Originally Posted by Nomoremex

justfred,

This is a bit on the philisophical side but in answer to whether you should be selling insurance to illegals I would ask you;

Why don't you open an office in mexico selling American insurance to mexicans?

Why not sell American insurance to foreigners in, let's say, saudi arabia, Iran, syria? Why NOT sell to terrorists if they want to get American insurance to drive legally using their forged ID's? Why not sell to Mohammed Atta and his family so their driving privileges are unencumbered by, let's say, LAWS?

Could it be because you are an American company selling insurance to Americans? Could it be that it is the lawful thing to do and unlawful to legitimize criminal aliens and let them loose on our streets? Is your company affiliated with the mob and therefore patronizes the money launderers and identity theives who use the policy to get further into our social system?

Why bother asking for a name or other info that is known fraudulent to begin with?

Why not just list everyone as Jose Doe or Ahmed Doe and set them loose on our streets?

Do you really think that these illegals will go through your insurance company when they injure or kill an American motorist? You may as well time them in advance for the 50 yd dash to get your answer up front.

Like I said, a bit philisophical but not mean spirited in any way.

Just a couple of points - I DO sell Mexican insurance to Americans (US insurance doesn't apply south of the border).

I sell insurance, on a regular basis, to citizens of Pakistan, India, various Arab countries, Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Brits, Germans, French and yes, Mexicans. I would guess that the vast majority of these people (including the Mexicans) are not illegals, but I don't regularly ask to see their visas to ensure they haven't expired, either. Most give me SSNs, unless they are in country on a student visa, but I have no way of ensuring that they are valid either.

For your information, there is no prohibition to selling insurance to anyone, including those with no drivers license, as long as they can provide insurable interest in whatever risk is being covered.

Do I think an illegal would go through my company if they injured or killed an American? Certainly - otherwise, why purchase the policy to begin with? Would my company pay? Absolutely - it is a unilateral contract with no provision or expectation of the client (once the typical underwriting process is done) other than to pay the premiums.

Now, unless the illegal was involved in some sort of insurance scam, I don't see how this could be construed as money laundering or any such thing. Although the client selection process is a bit more in depth, the actual transaction is online with someone going into a 7-11 and purchasing a soda. Should the clerk at the 7-11 not sell it to him?

BTW...I found your post neither philosophical nor not mean spirited.

justfred,

I REALLY wasn't being mean spirited in any way. I was playing devil's advocate and raising the various points to see which parts of our system are so broken that it would allow SO many contradictions to be made legal?

In my neighborhood illegal mexicans buy cars with impunity. HOW can it be legal in the first place? They are practicing identity thieves!

Then, how can it be legal to drive without a license but OK if you have insurance? Logically, no license? No Car?No need for insurance? When they can't produce a license after an accident or crime the cops have to guess who they are and can't find priors. How can it be legal to sell insurance to unlicensed motorists?

Get my point?

If a terrorist brought ahmed over from Saudi Arabia on a freighter, he could claim to be American or Legal, buy a car without a license (or a fake one), buy insurance so as to avoid suspicion and just melt into the environment as though he belonged?

As far as the illegal coming to you in the case of serious injury with his motor vehicle; he only has cheap liablilty insurance to avoid detection from cops when he is stopped. Do you really think they care about legalities? (illegals, illegalities)? The cheapest thing to do is to abandon the car (not traceable to any real identity) and run for the border (as they do whenever they're about to be busted for a serious crime).

Although the client selection process is a bit more in depth, the actual transaction is online with someone going into a 7-11 and purchasing a soda. Should the clerk at the 7-11 not sell it to him?

A bartender can't serve alcohol to a drunk guy in case of serious car accident but it is allowed to sell insurance to unlicensed and illegal aliens with no fear of consequence?


That is my point.

Originally Posted by Nomoremex

Then, how can it be legal to drive without a license but OK if you have insurance? Logically, no license? No Car?No need for insurance? When they can't produce a license after an accident or crime the cops have to guess who they are and can't find priors. How can it be legal to sell insurance to unlicensed motorists?

There is one exception to this Nomoremex that probably a lot of people, possibly you may have even seen. Many elderly or disabled people who can no longer drive safely do keep a vehicle and have to have it insured even if someone else who is licensed does the driving.

cvangel,
You'd think they'd create a special classification for that if they want to prevent loopholes being exploited?

Are they going to be offering "Small Business Loans" to Drug Dealers yet? These poor urban males could do so much better for themselves if they were able to buy drugs and guns at bulk discount prices.

I think the Executives of Bank of America all need to be arrested for Aiding and Abeting an illegal alien and treason and be denied bail while awating trial due to flight risk because of access to large amounts of money.

And Bank of America needs to pay at least $100,000 in fines for every account illegally opened, freeze the account, deposit the funds into government accounts, then close it and give full information on any illegal account to the government.