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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettybb
    By your own admission you are a self avowed agnostic converted by God, you are screaming for religious freedom for everyone except Christians, and you're going to pray for my soul. What was that line from Shakespeare?


    Sorry, but Darth has not advocated for "religious freedom for everyone except Christians." as you claim.

    He has just said he no longer buys into the Christian faith, thinks your religious beliefs are misquided, and have led you to a restricted view of the world. So what? I bet you think his beliefs are misquided, and don't have any intention of considering anyone else world view but your own.

    The real problem I think is that Christians, (as well as many other religions) think they have the "right" faith, and do not hesitate to make clear any other view is deficient. It is not so agreeable when someone comes along and hands the same attitude right back, that they have the "right" idea and yours is deficient. I call it the "holier than thou" attitude.

    The real fact is no proof there even is a god. It is all just speculation. So everyone should stop trying to claim they have the right answer.
    I'll be brief: At no time did I address this issue as anything other than a concerned American. That both you and Darth continue to insist you know what my religious affiliation/conviction is demonstrates the height of arrogance and ignorance. That you both continue to rail against Christianity demonstrates both a chip on your shoulders and a lack of conviction in your own beliefs about the nature of this nation. Otherwise, why rail about it?

    Carefully read the Constitution and it's history, as well as the writings of its authors and the nations founders. The foundations of our country are based on the spiritual principles of Christianity, if not Christianity itself. And thank God for that, for that is what allows our freedom of religion, be it Christian, Judaism. Buddhist, Wicca (spelling?), and many others, including Islam. This by the way is something you don't find in Muslim nations in the Middle East, where other religions are forbidden, and citizens are put to death when they convert from Islam. So when their people come here and insist we do as they say, not as they do, what exactly do they expect?

    Neither of you know a thing about who I am, or what I do, or what my views of the world are. By continuing to insist that you do, renders you both impotent.

    Damn, I said I'd be brief.
    <div>
    </div>

  2. #42
    Senior Member GaPatriot's Avatar
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    Although this is a Facebook entry concerning religious intolerance toward Christians and contempt for some of her students in the classroom, people need to understand, clearly, that what they post on places like Facebook can bite them in the professions. Several examples:

    1. A teacher in GA had a picture posted (in the private place on her page) of her on a vacation and she was drinking. Somehow access was obtained and she was fired although drinking is legal.

    2. A new nurse had posted info on her page (don't know if it was Facebook or MySpace or whatever) lost her job because she was excited that she found a medical condition on a patient assigned to her and notified the physician and it was taken care of. Somehow the hospital found out and although she did not identify the patient they felt confidentiality was breached.

    3. My son works in PR and routinely searches those social media sites to see pictures and postings of potential new hires. Helps him narrow the field.

    I disagree that a teacher has the right to teach religious values in any form. Only the parents have that right. If she felt she was being discriminated against for her beliefs, and exactly how did the kids know what they are anyway, she should have called in the parents to explain her side of the "problem". And a child bringing in a bible to school, as long as they are not trying to proselytize on the playground, should be their right. We are protected from religious persecution, which is what her Facebook entry seems to indicate.

    If a child is intolerant of a teacher's religion, they should not be allowed to disrupt the class, but it is their right not to like it. The teacher does not have the right to teach religious tolerance from her point of view, unless it is part of the curriculum approved by the BOE and parents know what is going on the classroom.

    If a teacher or any employee wants freedom FROM other people's religious beliefs, perhaps they need to either move to an area where that religion is the overwhelming majority, or be employed within their religious community.

    My first job out of nursing school was in maternity. The nurses in the nursery would make little bunny ears around Easter out of washcloths for the newborns. Yes, a mom complained because apparently bunnies are Christian and she felt her baby was being unduly influenced.

  3. #43

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    your post

    Quote Originally Posted by melena29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bettybb
    By your own admission you are a self avowed agnostic converted by God, you are screaming for religious freedom for everyone except Christians, and you're going to pray for my soul. What was that line from Shakespeare?


    Sorry, but Darth has not advocated for "religious freedom for everyone except Christians." as you claim.

    He has just said he no longer buys into the Christian faith, thinks your religious beliefs are misquided, and have led you to a restricted view of the world. So what? I bet you think his beliefs are misquided, and don't have any intention of considering anyone else world view but your own.

    The real problem I think is that Christians, (as well as many other religions) think they have the "right" faith, and do not hesitate to make clear any other view is deficient. It is not so agreeable when someone comes along and hands the same attitude right back, that they have the "right" idea and yours is deficient. I call it the "holier than thou" attitude.

    The real fact is no proof there even is a god. It is all just speculation. So everyone should stop trying to claim they have the right answer.
    I'll be brief: At no time did I address this issue as anything other than a concerned American. That both you and Darth continue to insist you know what my religious affiliation/conviction is demonstrates the height of arrogance and ignorance. That you both continue to rail against Christianity demonstrates both a chip on your shoulders and a lack of conviction in your own beliefs about the nature of this nation. Otherwise, why rail about it?

    Carefully read the Constitution and it's history, as well as the writings of its authors and the nations founders. The foundations of our country are based on the spiritual principles of Christianity, if not Christianity itself. And thank God for that, for that is what allows our freedom of religion, be it Christian, Judaism. Buddhist, Wicca (spelling?), and many others, including Islam. This by the way is something you don't find in Muslim nations in the Middle East, where other religions are forbidden, and citizens are put to death when they convert from Islam. So when their people come here and insist we do as they say, not as they do, what exactly do they expect?

    Neither of you know a thing about who I am, or what I do, or what my views of the world are. By continuing to insist that you do, renders you both impotent.

    Damn, I said I'd be brief.
    .........................

    I reread your posts, some of which I missed. You are correct, you have not stated you are a Christian, but I never said you were, just that you probably disagee with Darth's views. I have not railed against Christianity in my posts, my criticisms have been against religions.

    On several points we agree. Neither of us like Islam, we both think religion, as you put it wrecks havoc in the world, and this teacher behaved improperly, though for different reasons.

    I believe we disagree on the following points:

    1. We are a secular nation. Check out the Treaty of Tripoli 1796. It was passed by Congress with a unanimous vote. It was signed by John Adams. It stated, rather clearly,

    "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion..."

    2. Everyone has free speech here in America including this teacher. So it was not improper for her to criticize the bible or southern culture.

    3. What these kids did was wrong. It could have been innocent, but if so, why was it done anonymously? Using religious symbols in this way can be considered a threat, or a hate crime. Think about the use of the Christian cross by the KKK, when they placed in on the front lawns of black people.

    We don't know enough about the whole history of what has gone on in this community and classroom with respect to this teacher. But there is a real possiblity that this teacher was right, and this was just pure religious harassment.

    4. You stated "So when their people come here and insist we do as they say, not as they do, what exactly do they expect? " What did this teacher do? She did not force her religion on anyone. It was other other way around.

    [/i]
    Take a stand or all there will be left to do is to ask the last person in the country we once called America to lower the flag one last time.

  4. #44
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    My first job out of nursing school was in maternity. The nurses in the nursery would make little bunny ears around Easter out of washcloths for the newborns. Yes, a mom complained because apparently bunnies are Christian and she felt her baby was being unduly influenced.
    Oh, that is hilarious! Aren't there also bunnies in non-Christian countries? I feel for this newborn with a mother that is anti-Easter bunny.
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  5. #45
    Super Moderator GeorgiaPeach's Avatar
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    Presidents with their hands on the Bible, countless speeches with references to God, Christ, Saviour, the Holy Spirit, and Pilgrims who came for expression of religion, not a mandated state or king guided religion, singing praises to the Lord and to God, with Bibles in hand. This is our history.

    There is no denying that God, that a Judeo- Christian heritage is ours in the United States. It is up to Americans who long to preserve and protect our history, to study the full history of our founding, to read the proclamations and speeches, and to protect those things that in the end have protected us all, believers and non believers. It is up to us to teach the children a truthful history, and to not allow others, or the SPLC, ACLU to dismiss or deny the words of those who set America apart from all other nations.

    Just as the President of the United States takes his oath of public office with his hand on the Bible, any student should have the right to have a Bible in hand, to have the freedom to pray, and to be able to share their faith with others at the appropriate times.

    I enjoyed reading through the Thanksgiving speeches of our Presidents, beginning with President Washington.

    Here are the first few. It is a blessing to read each one.

    (quote)

    PRESIDENTIAL THANKSGIVING PROCLAMATIONS
    1789-1815 : George Washington, John Adams, James Madison


    THANKSGIVING DAY 1789
    BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION


    Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor - and Whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."

    Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be – That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks – for his kind care and protection of the People of this country previous to their becoming a Nation – for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his providence, which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war –for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed – for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted, for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

    And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions – to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually – to render our national government a blessing to all the People, by constantly being a government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed – to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord – To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and Us – and generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

    Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.
    GO. WASHINGTON.

    ************************************************** *******************************

    THANKSGIVING DAY 1795
    BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES – A PROCLAMATION


    When we review the calamities which afflict so many other nations, the present condition of the United States affords much matter of consolation and satisfaction. Our exemption hitherto from foreign war, an increasing prospect of the continuance of that exception, the great degree of internal tranquillity we have enjoyed, the recent confirmation of that tranquillity by the suppression of an insurrection which so wantonly threatened it, the happy course of our public affairs in general, the unexampled prosperity of all classes of our citizens, are circumstances which peculiarly mark our situation with indications of the Divine beneficence toward us. In such a state of things it is in an especial manner our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude, to acknowledge our many and great obligations to Almighty God and to implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experience.

    Deeply penetrated with this sentiment, I, George Washington, President of the United States, do recommend to all religious societies and denominations, and to all persons whomsoever, within the United States to set apart and observe Thursday, the 19th day of February next as a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, and on that day to meet together and render their sincere and hearty thanks to the Great Ruler of Nations for the manifold and signal mercies which distinguish our lot as a nation, particularly for the possession of constitutions of government which united and by their union establish liberty with order; for the preservation of our peace, foreign and domestic; for the seasonable control which has been given to a spirit of disorder in the suppression of the late insurrection, and generally for the prosperous course of our affairs, public and private; and at the same time humbly and fervently to beseech the kind Author of these blessings graciously to prolong them to us; to imprint on our hearts a deep and solemn sense of our obligations to Him for them; to teach us rightly to estimate their immense value; to preserve us from the arrogance of prosperity, and from hazarding the advantages we enjoy by delusive pursuits; to dispose us to merit the continuance of His favors by not abusing them; by our gratitude for them, and by a correspondent conduct as citizens and men; to render this country more and more a safe and propitious asylum for the unfortunate of other countries; to extend among us true and useful knowledge; to diffuse and establish habits of sobriety, order, morality, and piety, and finally, to impart all the blessings we possess, or ask for ourselves, to the whole family of mankind.
    In testimony whereof I have caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed to these presents, and signed the same with my hand.

    Done at the city of Philadelphia, the 1st day of January, 1795, and of the Independence of the United States of America the nineteenth.

    By the President : GO. WASHINGTON.

    ************************************************** *********

    A DAY OF FASTING & HUMILIATION (NOT THANKSGIVING!) 1798

    BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES – A PROCLAMATION


    As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety without which social happiness can not exist nor the blessings of a free government be enjoyed; and as this duty, at all times incumbent, is so especially in seasons of difficulty or of danger, when existing or threatening calamities, the just judgments of God against prevalent iniquity, are a loud call to repentance and reformation; and as the United States of America are at present placed in a hazardous and afflictive situation by the unfriendly disposition, conduct, and demands of a foreign power, evinced by repeated refusals to receive our messengers of reconciliation and peace, by depredations on our commerce, and the infliction of injuries on very many of our fellow-citizens while engaged in their lawful business on the seas – under these considerations it has appeared to me that the duty of imploring the mercy and benediction of Heaven on our country demands at this time a special attention from its inhabitants.

    I have therefore thought fit to recommend, and I do hereby recommend, that Wednesday, the 9th day of May next, be observed throughout the United States as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens of these States, abstaining on that day from their customary worldly occupations, offer their devout addresses to the Father of Mercies agreeably to those forms or methods which they have severally adopted as the most suitable and becoming; that all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before God the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation, beseeching Him at the same time, of His infinite grace, through the Redeemer of the World, freely to remit all our offenses, and to incline us by His Holy Spirit to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction; that it be made the subject of particular and earnest supplication that our country may be protected from all the dangers which threaten it; that our civil and religious privileges may be preserved inviolate and perpetuated to the latest generations; that our public councils and magistrates may be especially enlightened and directed at this critical period; that the American people may be united in those bonds of amity and mutual confidence and inspired with that vigor and fortitude by which they have in times past been so highly distinguished and by which they have obtained such invaluable advantages; that the health of the inhabitants of our land may be preserved, and their agriculture, commerce, fisheries, arts, and manufactures be blessed and prospered; that the principles of genuine piety and sound morality may influence the minds and govern the lives of every description of our citizens and that the blessings of peace, freedom, and pure religion may be speedily extended to all the nations of the earth.

    And finally, I recommend that on the said day the duties of humiliation and prayer be accompanied by fervent thanksgiving to the Bestower of Every Good Gift, not only for His having hitherto protected and preserved the people of these United States in the independent enjoyment of their religious and civil freedom, but also for having prospered them in a wonderful progress of population, and for conferring on them many and great favors conducive to the happiness and prosperity of a nation.

    Given under my hand the seal of the United States of America, at Philadelphia, this 23d day of March, A.D. 1798, and of the Independence of the said States the twenty-second.

    By the President : JOHN ADAMS.


    http://www.pilgrimhall.org/ThanxProc.htm


    NATIONAL THANKSGIVING PROCLAMATIONS
    (not all are in November!)

    The first national Thanksgiving Proclamations were those
    issued by the Continental Congress between 1777 and 1784.


    From 1785 to 1788, there were no national Thanksgiving Proclamations.
    George Washington issued the first Presidential Thanksgiving Proclamation in 1789.

    PRESIDENTIAL THANKSGIVING PROCLAMATIONS

    1789-1815 George Washington, (John Adams), James Madison
    1816-1861 There were no Presidential Thanksgiving Proclamations!
    1862-1869 Abraham Lincoln, Andrew Johnson, Ulysses S. Grant
    1870-1879 Ulysses S. Grant, Rutherford B. Hayes
    1880-1889 Rutherford B. Hayes, Chester A. Arthur, Grover Cleveland, Benjamin Harrison
    1890-1899 Benjamin Harrison, Grover Cleveland, William McKinley
    1900-1909 William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, William H. Taft
    1910-1919 William H. Taft, Woodrow Wilson
    1920-1929 Woodrow Wilson, Warren G. Harding, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover
    1930-1939 Herbert Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt
    1940-1949 Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman
    1950-1959 Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1960-1969 Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon
    1970-1979 Richard Nixon, Gerald R. Ford, Jimmy Carter
    1980-1989 Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George Bush
    1990-1999 George Bush, William J. Clinton
    2000-2009 William J. Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama
    http://www.pilgrimhall.org/ThanxProc.htm

    http://www.pilgrimhall.org/GivingThanks3c.htm

    Psalm 139:14
    Matthew 19:26
    But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
    ____________________

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  6. #46
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    Legal point...who left the book on the table? or was a book even there?

  7. #47
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    wonderful.... please read all of it... Maybe the growing pains still cost lives.

    http://www.catholiceducation.org/articl ... g0040.html

    Can America still be called a Christian nation? It is certainly a more religiously pluralistic and diverse society than it was during the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. There are increasing numbers of non-Christians immigrating to this country, and there has been a rapid rise in adherents to Islam among our population. There are millions of Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Unitarians, Hindus, Wiccans, Naturists, Agnostics, and Atheists, but Christians comprise roughly 84% of the population. Our constitutional legal system is still based on the Jewish/Christian Bible, not the Koran or other holy book. We still observe Sunday, the Christian Sabbath, as an official holiday. Easter and Christmas still have a special place in the holiday lexicon. The Ten Commandments are still on the wall behind the Supreme Court Justices when they take the bench. Our coins still display the motto "In God We Trust." The US is still firmly part of a Western Civilization fashioned by a Judeo-Christian religious ethic and heritage. Alexis de Tocqueville observed more than a century and a half ago, "There is no country in the world, where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America." That is still true today. We live, not under a Christian government, but in a nation where all are free to practice their particular religion, in accommodation with other religions, and in accordance with the basic principles of the nation, which are Christian in origin. It is in that sense that America may properly be referred to as a Christian nation.

  8. #48

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    Heritgage yes... but we are a secular country

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaPeach
    Presidents with their hands on the Bible, countless speeches with references to God, Christ, Saviour, the Holy Spirit, and Pilgrims who came for expression of religion, not a mandated state or king guided religion, singing praises to the Lord and to God, with Bibles in hand. This is our history.

    There is no denying that God, that a Judeo- Christian heritage is ours in the United States. It is up to Americans who long to preserve and protect our history, to study the full history of our founding, to read the proclamations and speeches, and to protect those things that in the end have protected us all, believers and non believers. It is up to us to teach the children a truthful history, and to not allow others, or the SPLC, ACLU to dismiss or deny the words of those who set America apart from all other nations.

    Just as the President of the United States takes his oath of public office with his hand on the Bible, any student should have the right to have a Bible in hand, to have the freedom to pray, and to be able to share their faith with others at the appropriate times.

    I enjoyed reading through the Thanksgiving speeches of our Presidents, beginning with President Washington.

    Here are the first few. It is a blessing to read each one.

    (quote)

    PRESIDENTIAL THANKSGIVING PROCLAMATIONS
    1789-1815 : George Washington, John Adams, James Madison


    THANKSGIVING DAY 1789
    BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION


    Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor - and Whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."

    Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be – That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks – for his kind care and protection of the People of this country previous to their becoming a Nation – for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his providence, which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war –for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed – for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted, for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

    And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions – to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually – to render our national government a blessing to all the People, by constantly being a government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed – to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord – To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and Us – and generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

    Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.
    GO. WASHINGTON.

    ************************************************** *******************************

    THANKSGIVING DAY 1795
    BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES – A PROCLAMATION


    When we review the calamities which afflict so many other nations, the present condition of the United States affords much matter of consolation and satisfaction. Our exemption hitherto from foreign war, an increasing prospect of the continuance of that exception, the great degree of internal tranquillity we have enjoyed, the recent confirmation of that tranquillity by the suppression of an insurrection which so wantonly threatened it, the happy course of our public affairs in general, the unexampled prosperity of all classes of our citizens, are circumstances which peculiarly mark our situation with indications of the Divine beneficence toward us. In such a state of things it is in an especial manner our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude, to acknowledge our many and great obligations to Almighty God and to implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experience.

    Deeply penetrated with this sentiment, I, George Washington, President of the United States, do recommend to all religious societies and denominations, and to all persons whomsoever, within the United States to set apart and observe Thursday, the 19th day of February next as a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, and on that day to meet together and render their sincere and hearty thanks to the Great Ruler of Nations for the manifold and signal mercies which distinguish our lot as a nation, particularly for the possession of constitutions of government which united and by their union establish liberty with order; for the preservation of our peace, foreign and domestic; for the seasonable control which has been given to a spirit of disorder in the suppression of the late insurrection, and generally for the prosperous course of our affairs, public and private; and at the same time humbly and fervently to beseech the kind Author of these blessings graciously to prolong them to us; to imprint on our hearts a deep and solemn sense of our obligations to Him for them; to teach us rightly to estimate their immense value; to preserve us from the arrogance of prosperity, and from hazarding the advantages we enjoy by delusive pursuits; to dispose us to merit the continuance of His favors by not abusing them; by our gratitude for them, and by a correspondent conduct as citizens and men; to render this country more and more a safe and propitious asylum for the unfortunate of other countries; to extend among us true and useful knowledge; to diffuse and establish habits of sobriety, order, morality, and piety, and finally, to impart all the blessings we possess, or ask for ourselves, to the whole family of mankind.
    In testimony whereof I have caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed to these presents, and signed the same with my hand.

    Done at the city of Philadelphia, the 1st day of January, 1795, and of the Independence of the United States of America the nineteenth.

    By the President : GO. WASHINGTON.

    ************************************************** *********

    A DAY OF FASTING & HUMILIATION (NOT THANKSGIVING!) 1798

    BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES – A PROCLAMATION


    As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety without which social happiness can not exist nor the blessings of a free government be enjoyed; and as this duty, at all times incumbent, is so especially in seasons of difficulty or of danger, when existing or threatening calamities, the just judgments of God against prevalent iniquity, are a loud call to repentance and reformation; and as the United States of America are at present placed in a hazardous and afflictive situation by the unfriendly disposition, conduct, and demands of a foreign power, evinced by repeated refusals to receive our messengers of reconciliation and peace, by depredations on our commerce, and the infliction of injuries on very many of our fellow-citizens while engaged in their lawful business on the seas – under these considerations it has appeared to me that the duty of imploring the mercy and benediction of Heaven on our country demands at this time a special attention from its inhabitants.

    I have therefore thought fit to recommend, and I do hereby recommend, that Wednesday, the 9th day of May next, be observed throughout the United States as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens of these States, abstaining on that day from their customary worldly occupations, offer their devout addresses to the Father of Mercies agreeably to those forms or methods which they have severally adopted as the most suitable and becoming; that all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before God the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation, beseeching Him at the same time, of His infinite grace, through the Redeemer of the World, freely to remit all our offenses, and to incline us by His Holy Spirit to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction; that it be made the subject of particular and earnest supplication that our country may be protected from all the dangers which threaten it; that our civil and religious privileges may be preserved inviolate and perpetuated to the latest generations; that our public councils and magistrates may be especially enlightened and directed at this critical period; that the American people may be united in those bonds of amity and mutual confidence and inspired with that vigor and fortitude by which they have in times past been so highly distinguished and by which they have obtained such invaluable advantages; that the health of the inhabitants of our land may be preserved, and their agriculture, commerce, fisheries, arts, and manufactures be blessed and prospered; that the principles of genuine piety and sound morality may influence the minds and govern the lives of every description of our citizens and that the blessings of peace, freedom, and pure religion may be speedily extended to all the nations of the earth.

    And finally, I recommend that on the said day the duties of humiliation and prayer be accompanied by fervent thanksgiving to the Bestower of Every Good Gift, not only for His having hitherto protected and preserved the people of these United States in the independent enjoyment of their religious and civil freedom, but also for having prospered them in a wonderful progress of population, and for conferring on them many and great favors conducive to the happiness and prosperity of a nation.

    Given under my hand the seal of the United States of America, at Philadelphia, this 23d day of March, A.D. 1798, and of the Independence of the said States the twenty-second.

    By the President : JOHN ADAMS.


    http://www.pilgrimhall.org/ThanxProc.htm


    NATIONAL THANKSGIVING PROCLAMATIONS
    (not all are in November!)

    The first national Thanksgiving Proclamations were those
    issued by the Continental Congress between 1777 and 1784.


    From 1785 to 1788, there were no national Thanksgiving Proclamations.
    George Washington issued the first Presidential Thanksgiving Proclamation in 1789.

    PRESIDENTIAL THANKSGIVING PROCLAMATIONS

    1789-1815 George Washington, (John Adams), James Madison
    1816-1861 There were no Presidential Thanksgiving Proclamations!
    1862-1869 Abraham Lincoln, Andrew Johnson, Ulysses S. Grant
    1870-1879 Ulysses S. Grant, Rutherford B. Hayes
    1880-1889 Rutherford B. Hayes, Chester A. Arthur, Grover Cleveland, Benjamin Harrison
    1890-1899 Benjamin Harrison, Grover Cleveland, William McKinley
    1900-1909 William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, William H. Taft
    1910-1919 William H. Taft, Woodrow Wilson
    1920-1929 Woodrow Wilson, Warren G. Harding, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover
    1930-1939 Herbert Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt
    1940-1949 Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman
    1950-1959 Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1960-1969 Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon
    1970-1979 Richard Nixon, Gerald R. Ford, Jimmy Carter
    1980-1989 Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George Bush
    1990-1999 George Bush, William J. Clinton
    2000-2009 William J. Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama
    http://www.pilgrimhall.org/ThanxProc.htm

    http://www.pilgrimhall.org/GivingThanks3c.htm

    Psalm 139:14
    ..........

    Yes we have a Christian heritage in this country because there a large part of our population has been Christian.

    But we are a secular country and were founded as a secular country, which means we keep religion and government separate.

    Religion is strickly a private matter. 1796 Treaty of Tripooli, passed unanimously by Congress, signed by Adams.

    "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion..."


    History has spoken loud and clear.
    Take a stand or all there will be left to do is to ask the last person in the country we once called America to lower the flag one last time.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Hylander_1314's Avatar
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    Here's a list of the delegate's denominations who signed the Constitution, as it is stated "In the year of our Lord One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty seven".

    church affiliation of constitutional Convention delegates (total 55).
    28 Episcopalians.
    8 Presbyterians.
    7 Congregationalists.
    2 Dutch Reformed.
    2 Lutherans.
    2 Methodists.
    2 Roman Catholics.
    1 unknown.
    3 Deists (?).
    Source: Dr. M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company (Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982).

    1. Two who probably were not Christians but who believed (contrary to Deism) that God is
    involved in human affairs:
    Ben Franklin: Constitutional Convention, 28 June 1181 : " In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for the divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. I have lived, Sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacredwritings that 'except
    the Lord build the house, they labor in Vain that build it.' I firmly believe this; and I also believe that, without his concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel. ... "

    Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural Address, 1805: " I shall need ... the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefothers, as Israel of old, from their native land, and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with His providence, and our riper
    years with His wisdom and power; and to whose goodness I ask you to join with me in supplications, that He will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures, that whatsoever they do shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations."

    Others we know were Christians:
    George Washington: Speech to Delaware Chiefs 12May 1779:"You will do well to wish to learn our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are." In a Letter to 13 Governors, 8 June 1783 refers to Jesus Christ as "the Divine Author of our blessed Religion."

    Alexander Hamilton: Urged formation of the "Christian Constitutional Society" to preserve values essential to this nation. Deathbed, 11 July 1804: "I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ."

    John Jay: 1st Chief Justice, U.S. Supreme Court; Founder and President American Bible Society. His description of a gathering of French atheists: "They spoke freely and contemptuously of religion. I took no part in the conversation. In the course of it, one of them asked me if I believed in Christ. I answered that I did, and that I thanked God that I did. Nothing further passed between me and them or any of them on that subject."

    Samuel Adams: Father of the American Revolution; Last of the Puritans,
    Massachusetts Prayer & Fasting Proclamation20 March lJ97; "... I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken into pieces, and the oppressed made free; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on the holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is Prince of Peace."

    Roger Sherman: Connecticut Puritan, author of Great compromise by which Congress has two houses, Elder in Church pastored by Jonathan Edwards, Jr. "(The) threatenings of the law against impenitent sinners... are (as important) as the promises of the Gospel." In the words of John Adams, Sherman was "an old Puritan, as honest as an angel and as firm in the cause of American independence as Mount Atlas."

    Patrick Henry: Last Will and Testament'. "This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.

    I would suggest folks read the books about the individual Founders before debating this. Seperation of Church and State comes from Jefferson's response to a letter from the Danbury Baptists he wrote in 1802. The trouble is, all anybody refers to is the specific words seperation of church and State, without including the body of the entire letter. When one does include it, it has a whole new meaning. This whole argument stems from a bad decision by the Supreme Court in 1962(?), where for the first time, they did just that. They ignored the entire letter when referring to a case that escapes my memory at the moment. Yet Jefferson's letter had for 150 years been viewed in it's entirety when these cases came before the court, and time and again, Jefferson's idea that the Government would not dictate a specific religion to the people was defined.

    It had nothing to do with keeping religion out of government, for the Founders believed that morals came from religion, and only good government could come from a moral people.

    James Madison was also of great interest as he went to school to study theology to become a minister. He even stayed an extra semester to learn Hebrew so as to better understand the Olde Testament.

    I know that in school for the last especially 50 years there has been a revisionist version of our history concerning the Founding Fathers, as the best way to destroy the Republic, is to vilify those who had constructed it. So we've all been exposed to half truthes, and sometimes outright lies, but remember it is only meant to tear us apart as a good and moral nation and replace our great Republic with an elitist global socialism. Where instead of a free and just people, we are all serfs to the global masters.

    As John Adams said,

    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.


    And here again is Jeffersons letter to the Danbury Baptists:

    To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

    Gentlemen

    The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

    I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

    Th Jefferson
    Jan. 1. 1802.

  10. #50

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    Re: your post

    Quote Originally Posted by Bettybb
    Quote Originally Posted by melena29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bettybb
    By your own admission you are a self avowed agnostic converted by God, you are screaming for religious freedom for everyone except Christians, and you're going to pray for my soul. What was that line from Shakespeare?


    Sorry, but Darth has not advocated for "religious freedom for everyone except Christians." as you claim.

    He has just said he no longer buys into the Christian faith, thinks your religious beliefs are misquided, and have led you to a restricted view of the world. So what? I bet you think his beliefs are misquided, and don't have any intention of considering anyone else world view but your own.

    The real problem I think is that Christians, (as well as many other religions) think they have the "right" faith, and do not hesitate to make clear any other view is deficient. It is not so agreeable when someone comes along and hands the same attitude right back, that they have the "right" idea and yours is deficient. I call it the "holier than thou" attitude.

    The real fact is no proof there even is a god. It is all just speculation. So everyone should stop trying to claim they have the right answer.
    I'll be brief: At no time did I address this issue as anything other than a concerned American. That both you and Darth continue to insist you know what my religious affiliation/conviction is demonstrates the height of arrogance and ignorance. That you both continue to rail against Christianity demonstrates both a chip on your shoulders and a lack of conviction in your own beliefs about the nature of this nation. Otherwise, why rail about it?

    Carefully read the Constitution and it's history, as well as the writings of its authors and the nations founders. The foundations of our country are based on the spiritual principles of Christianity, if not Christianity itself. And thank God for that, for that is what allows our freedom of religion, be it Christian, Judaism. Buddhist, Wicca (spelling?), and many others, including Islam. This by the way is something you don't find in Muslim nations in the Middle East, where other religions are forbidden, and citizens are put to death when they convert from Islam. So when their people come here and insist we do as they say, not as they do, what exactly do they expect?

    Neither of you know a thing about who I am, or what I do, or what my views of the world are. By continuing to insist that you do, renders you both impotent.

    Damn, I said I'd be brief.
    .........................

    I reread your posts, some of which I missed. You are correct, you have not stated you are a Christian, but I never said you were, just that you probably disagee with Darth's views. I have not railed against Christianity in my posts, my criticisms have been against religions.

    On several points we agree. Neither of us like Islam, we both think religion, as you put it wrecks havoc in the world, and this teacher behaved improperly, though for different reasons.

    I believe we disagree on the following points:

    1. We are a secular nation. Check out the Treaty of Tripoli 1796. It was passed by Congress with a unanimous vote. It was signed by John Adams. It stated, rather clearly,

    "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion..."

    2. Everyone has free speech here in America including this teacher. So it was not improper for her to criticize the bible or southern culture.

    3. What these kids did was wrong. It could have been innocent, but if so, why was it done anonymously? Using religious symbols in this way can be considered a threat, or a hate crime. Think about the use of the Christian cross by the KKK, when they placed in on the front lawns of black people.

    We don't know enough about the whole history of what has gone on in this community and classroom with respect to this teacher. But there is a real possiblity that this teacher was right, and this was just pure religious harassment.

    4. You stated "So when their people come here and insist we do as they say, not as they do, what exactly do they expect? " What did this teacher do? She did not force her religion on anyone. It was other other way around.

    [/i]
    I don’t know where to start, so I’ll take it point by point.

    #1 Regardless of what the Treaty of Tripoli says, this nation was founded on Christian principles. The power and strength of the Bill of Rights is that first and foremost it affirms that the rights we have as outlined in the bill (with the exception of #9 and #10) are rights bestowed upon us by God. They are not granted by governments, nor can they take them away. That the nation is secular, goes without saying; that it is founded on Christian principles simply cannot be denied. For both of these truths, I am grateful.

    sec·u·lar adj - Not controlled by a religious body or concerned with religious or spiritual matters.

    We’ll look at #2 – her right of free speech last, as that is what I believe to be the actual crux of the argument, at least as many here see it.

    #3 We can’t know if the actions of the children were wrong unless we know the intent in their hearts. Whether their intentions were good or bad is incidental to the real issue here, and that is that the teacher responded inappropriately. She is the adult, she is the professional. She should have shown an example, but instead she acted like a child, and a ghastly one at that.

    #4 What I meant by the admonition “Do as I say, not as I doâ€
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    </div>

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