Thread: Bible Hate Crime? Wake Teacher Suspended Over Facebook Posts

Originally Posted by melena29

Originally Posted by Bettybb

Originally Posted by melena29

Originally Posted by Bettybb

By your own admission you are a self avowed agnostic converted by God, you are screaming for religious freedom for everyone except Christians, and you're going to pray for my soul. What was that line from Shakespeare?


Sorry, but Darth has not advocated for "religious freedom for everyone except Christians." as you claim.

He has just said he no longer buys into the Christian faith, thinks your religious beliefs are misquided, and have led you to a restricted view of the world. So what? I bet you think his beliefs are misquided, and don't have any intention of considering anyone else world view but your own.

The real problem I think is that Christians, (as well as many other religions) think they have the "right" faith, and do not hesitate to make clear any other view is deficient. It is not so agreeable when someone comes along and hands the same attitude right back, that they have the "right" idea and yours is deficient. I call it the "holier than thou" attitude.

The real fact is no proof there even is a god. It is all just speculation. So everyone should stop trying to claim they have the right answer.

I'll be brief: At no time did I address this issue as anything other than a concerned American. That both you and Darth continue to insist you know what my religious affiliation/conviction is demonstrates the height of arrogance and ignorance. That you both continue to rail against Christianity demonstrates both a chip on your shoulders and a lack of conviction in your own beliefs about the nature of this nation. Otherwise, why rail about it?

Carefully read the Constitution and it's history, as well as the writings of its authors and the nations founders. The foundations of our country are based on the spiritual principles of Christianity, if not Christianity itself. And thank God for that, for that is what allows our freedom of religion, be it Christian, Judaism. Buddhist, Wicca (spelling?), and many others, including Islam. This by the way is something you don't find in Muslim nations in the Middle East, where other religions are forbidden, and citizens are put to death when they convert from Islam. So when their people come here and insist we do as they say, not as they do, what exactly do they expect?

Neither of you know a thing about who I am, or what I do, or what my views of the world are. By continuing to insist that you do, renders you both impotent.

Damn, I said I'd be brief.

.........................

I reread your posts, some of which I missed. You are correct, you have not stated you are a Christian, but I never said you were, just that you probably disagee with Darth's views. I have not railed against Christianity in my posts, my criticisms have been against religions.

On several points we agree. Neither of us like Islam, we both think religion, as you put it wrecks havoc in the world, and this teacher behaved improperly, though for different reasons.

I believe we disagree on the following points:

1. We are a secular nation. Check out the Treaty of Tripoli 1796. It was passed by Congress with a unanimous vote. It was signed by John Adams. It stated, rather clearly,

"As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion..."

2. Everyone has free speech here in America including this teacher. So it was not improper for her to criticize the bible or southern culture.

3. What these kids did was wrong. It could have been innocent, but if so, why was it done anonymously? Using religious symbols in this way can be considered a threat, or a hate crime. Think about the use of the Christian cross by the KKK, when they placed in on the front lawns of black people.

We don't know enough about the whole history of what has gone on in this community and classroom with respect to this teacher. But there is a real possiblity that this teacher was right, and this was just pure religious harassment.

4. You stated "So when their people come here and insist we do as they say, not as they do, what exactly do they expect? " What did this teacher do? She did not force her religion on anyone. It was other other way around.

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I don’t know where to start, so I’ll take it point by point.

#1 Regardless of what the Treaty of Tripoli says, this nation was founded on Christian principles. The power and strength of the Bill of Rights is that first and foremost it affirms that the rights we have as outlined in the bill (with the exception of #9 and #10) are rights bestowed upon us by God. They are not granted by governments, nor can they take them away. That the nation is secular, goes without saying; that it is founded on Christian principles simply cannot be denied. For both of these truths, I am grateful.

sec·u·lar adj - Not controlled by a religious body or concerned with religious or spiritual matters.

We’ll look at #2 – her right of free speech last, as that is what I believe to be the actual crux of the argument, at least as many here see it.

#3 We can’t know if the actions of the children were wrong unless we know the intent in their hearts. Whether their intentions were good or bad is incidental to the real issue here, and that is that the teacher responded inappropriately. She is the adult, she is the professional. She should have shown an example, but instead she acted like a child, and a ghastly one at that.

#4 What I meant by the admonition “Do as I say, not as I doâ€

Betty,

One little detail, is the Bill of Rights does create any Rights. If you read all 10 of the Ammendments, they secure your Rights from Government intrusion. Kind of like a "we're just making sure you understand" kinda thing. All they tell the government is that you can't, you can't you can't, all the way down to the 10th Ammendment which in plain terms basically tells government, if we forgot anything else, you can't do that either.

Our Rights are only mentioned in Declaration as to where they come from. That all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. Freedom of speech, and religion were not European beliefs. There was a long entrenched aristocracy that kept peasants peasant, and royalty royalty with virtually no way for a common man to climb the ladder of success for himself or his family.

I would also suggest to you the Federalist, and Anti-Federalist Papers as references to democracy by the Founding Fathers. For if one reads them, one learns that to the Founding Fathers democracy was the worst form of government ever conceived of by man.

John Adams quotes:
Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.

John Adams quotes:
no good government but what is republican... the very definition of a republic is 'an empire of laws, and not of men.'

James Madison:

Such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.

Alexander Hamilton Speech June 21, 1778
It has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.

Elbridge Gerry quotes (From the debate on Representation):
The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people do not want virtue, but are the dupes of pretended patriots.

"Posterity, you will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that ever I took half the pains to preserve it." John Adams

Here's a good link on some good words from the framers.

http://www.dojgov.net/Liberty_Watch.htm

Originally Posted by Hylander_1314

Betty,

One little detail, is the Bill of Rights does create any Rights. If you read all 10 of the Ammendments, they secure your Rights from Government intrusion. Kind of like a "we're just making sure you understand" kinda thing. All they tell the government is that you can't, you can't you can't, all the way down to the 10th Ammendment which in plain terms basically tells government, if we forgot anything else, you can't do that either.

Our Rights are only mentioned in Declaration as to where they come from. That all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. Freedom of speech, and religion were not European beliefs. There was a long entrenched aristocracy that kept peasants peasant, and royalty royalty with virtually no way for a common man to climb the ladder of success for himself or his family.

I would also suggest to you the Federalist, and Anti-Federalist Papers as references to democracy by the Founding Fathers. For if one reads them, one learns that to the Founding Fathers democracy was the worst form of government ever conceived of by man.

John Adams quotes:
Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.

John Adams quotes:
no good government but what is republican... the very definition of a republic is 'an empire of laws, and not of men.'

James Madison:

Such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.

Alexander Hamilton Speech June 21, 1778
It has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.

Elbridge Gerry quotes (From the debate on Representation):
The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people do not want virtue, but are the dupes of pretended patriots.

"Posterity, you will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that ever I took half the pains to preserve it." John Adams

Here's a good link on some good words from the framers.

http://www.dojgov.net/Liberty_Watch.htm

..............

Sure the Bill of Rights created rights... but not from god.

There was no reference to god, much less a Christian god in the Declaration of Independence. There was a reference to the Creator, a deist idea.. and the deists didn't believe in anything remotely ressembling the Christian idea of god.

The 10 commandments says zero about government, or rigthts. The 10 commandments had no influence on the creation of our government or of our rights. Nor did any Christain principles.

Freedom of speech, religion, even democracy etc.... came from European ideas, especially enlightenment ideas. Remember the French Revolulation which predated ours....and which championed democratic notions?

Ancient Greece actually is the place where the concept of democracy originated. Look it up.

England had elements of democratic rule as eary as 1215 with the Magna Carta. Their House of Commons ( which is like our Congress) was independant from the monarchy and clerk by 1341. By the time of the American Revolution, the British had an large, very prosperous and upwardly mobile middle class. Remember Sir Francis Drake and his cohorts? Sure they still had the monarchy, but they also had a form of democratic rule. In fact they still have the monarchtoday, but they are still a democracy.

Read Bentham. Read Montesque, and the other European political thinkers to see where our Founding Fathers found their inspiration.

Sure our Founding Father debated all these notions and out of these debates came our system. They did an incredible job.

Sorry, Christianity has absolutely zero to do with the creation of America.
And the Congress at the time, and John Adams, said so very clearly. Christians have been desparately trying to take credit where credit is not due. It is a major propaganda offensive, but propoganda it is.

What I do think is that European Americans should be celebrating our heritage as exemplified by our Founding Fathers. What they did was absolutely extraordinary. We have good reason to be proud.

Christianity and Islam aside.....

If the reports of what this woman said about her students are accurate then...

No man or woman that has such negative feelings towards their students should be placed in, or allowed to remain, in a position of trust and authority over American children.

The bible on the desk is innocent enough. It is common for all religions to try to spread the word to others. There is no violation of rules here because the students did it, not the teacher. If the teacher had tried to place bibles on the desks of Muslim students that would be different because of the power relationship change.

The real issue here is that it appears this teacher has ill feelings towards her own students because of their age, demographics, religion, or multiple characteristics.

The fact the US is facing a great deal of hostility and infiltration by Muslims that wish us harm accentuates public concerns about this woman's expressed hostility towards our American school children under her care.

W

Sorry Betty, my bad, I missed a single word in my openning, in that the Bill of Rights did "not" create any Rights. It only secures them. I do apologise for that. My old Constitutional Professor would have hung me out to dry for that little mistake, as it changes completely the message of the body of the lines that follow.

It is news to me that the French Revolution predates the American War for Independence. The American War for Independence ended in 1783, and the French Revolution started July 14th 1789. (I used to go to New Orleans for Bastille Day).

Our Founding Fathers with their Declaration of Independence were doing the same thing that they considered all reasonable free loving Englishmen would do, is to assert their Rights and hope that the King would see reason.

Um, I am aware of the Greek Democracies. Democracy comes from the Greek, demos kreitan(?) not sure about spelling as I don't have my reference handy, after five minutes of searching But the translation is "the people to rule".

Republic, comes from the Latin Res Publica, "the public thing", or the law.

What they did lay out a foundation for was a Constitutional Republic. Or to quote Benjamin Franklin at the close of the Constitutional Convention, a Mrs. Powell of Philadelphia asked him, Dr. Franklin, what have you given us, a Republic or a Monarchy? And he quickly replied, Madame, you have a Republic if you can keep it.

Aside from Montequieu, I would also suggest, Grotius, Pufendorf, Vattel, Cicero, Blackstone, and Locke. And one more that is post Colonial America, is The Law by Frederick Bastiat.

The openning of the Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to disolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the seperate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the seperation.

What must not be skewed though, is their own personal thoughts and ideas. Apart from public life.

Now if you speak of the structure of the government, then no, there is no religious overtone in the structure.

Now if we are talking morals and ideals, that's completely different. It's like the difference between religion, and religious followers.

Our system of law was in many ways based on olde English Common Law, as a foundation is always required before a structure can be erected.

Also listen to what the Founders often refer to in their prayers, as it is usually a desire for strength and perserverence in difficult times, as opposed to what you would consider modern day evangelism. There was also a lot of requests for wisdom.

For olde England, even before the Mangna Carta, which put restraints on the Norman monarchs, the Saxons had a form of government that was bound by certain individual rights that came from the olde German in Saxony. That is where "AngloSaxon" gets it's roots from, the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes who settled in what is now England, and subjugated the indiginous celtic tribes.

Yes it is quite the fascinating history to undertake. The Founding Fathers in some respects just took those notions of freedom one more step forward. And why wouldn't they? They had for quite a lot of the time been required to take matters into their own hands since it took a long time to traverse from the Colonies to England and back, and it was not prudent to wait for a formal reply from the Crown or Parliment for permission, or restraint.

But to get back on topic, laws come from morals. Where do morals come from? Do you legislate morals? I would think not. What are just morals and what are unjust morals? Who is to decide? Would you trust Washington DC to dictate you your morals? Would you prefer to bow to your legislators for their infinite wisdom.

Bettybb,

I'm glad we got this to the point of constructive, civil comminication. I believe what makes our country so dynamic is that we encourage, rather than discourage this kind of dialogue.

One final thought and then I must go on with my life:

We will have to agree to disagree on one thing, and that is that this nation was not founded on Christian principles.

Take care of yourself.

Originally Posted by melena29

Bettybb,

I'm glad we got this to the point of constructive, civil comminication. I believe what makes our country so dynamic is that we encourage, rather than discourage this kind of dialogue.

One final thought and then I must go on with my life:

We will have to agree to disagree on one thing, and that is that this nation was not founded on Christian principles.

Take care of yourself.

Thanks for chatting. Cheers!