Thread: Does anyone think different ?

Originally Posted by Judy

Suggest all you want. I have every ulterior motive for defending Iran. Let me say it again if you didn't "get it" the first 5 times.

Iran has done NOTHING absolutely NOTHING to the United States in 27 years and then they took hostages to try and barter the return of their Shah so they could put him on trial for his crimes against them.

I am defending Iran's right to nuclear power and I'll defend any nation's right to nuclear power.

I am defending Iran's Government because they have not done ONE THING to hurt the United States or the American People.

I am defending Iran because until they do something that no longer warrants it, they deserve to be defended just like any other free nation.

I am opposed to pre-emptive attacks based on lies, fear, and ignorance about the political situation in these countries. I am opposed to unjustified wars based on lies that we can not win.

You want to Nuke Iran because you think their President is a nut job? Then just say so.

I vehemently disagree with NUKING anyone...until they invade this country and attack American Soil or are on their way in to do so.

PERIOD.

Replace "Iran" with "Nazi Germany" in each case and you have just defined the idiotic policies of the appeasers in 1937.

I need say no more, except that I never advocated nuking anyone. I guess that when your own arguments go from weak to absurd, the best you can manage by way of a rebuttal is to put words in my mouth that I never said and to impute opinions that I do not hold. That's just sad.

Iran and their terrorist arm in Syria and Lebanon have committed many egregious offences against us and our allies. They are arming the terrorist in Iraq, and their leader has made no secret of his wish to destroy Israel. Bush promised he would never allow them to have nuclear capabilities but then he's made a lot of promises.
If they possessed a nuclear device you can bet they would give one to anyone willing to bring it across our unprotected and probably never to be protected southern border

They could get nuclear material from several countries now.

I just don't see Iran as a country or government that wants to hurt the American People or anyone else for that matter and there is no evidence to the contrary.

But I understand people are afraid because of the things our government has said about them. They said the same thing about Iraq ..."yellow cake" ... "mushroom clouds" ... "imminent nuclear threat" ... "WMDS" ... same people, same lies, same goal.

So I'll need a great deal of hard verifiable evidence before I could possibly hate Iran or approve of world sanctions or bombing their country.

Originally Posted by Judy

They could get nuclear material from several countries now.

I just don't see Iran as a country or government that wants to hurt the American People or anyone else for that matter and there is no evidence to the contrary.

But I understand people are afraid because of the things our government has said about them. They said the same thing about Iraq ..."yellow cake" ... "mushroom clouds" ... "imminent nuclear threat" ... "WMDS" ... same people, same lies, same goal.

So I'll need a great deal of hard verifiable evidence before I could possibly hate Iran or approve of world sanctions or bombing their country.

No, I am concerned because of what Iran's OWN PRESIDENT has said about his specific aims. What part of that don't you get? What part of that are you desperately refusing to get and WHY?

1. Iran's President has said he wants to develop enriched uranium for peaceful commercial purposes for use in the nuclear power industry both for Iran's use and for sale of the products to other nations and customers.

2. Iran has signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

3. Iran does not have within its borders all the ingredients needed to manufacture a nuclear weapon.

4. Iran is a democracy and Admandinejab is only the President. He does not rule Iran and does not have the authority to develop let alone use a nuclear weapon against another nation pre-emptively without the approval and consent of the people of Iran.

5. I do not believe the people of Iran would ever authorize a nuclear attack against the United States or the nation of Israel.

6. In the improbable event they would and could, if they did, they would be obliterated by the United States.

7. To launch such an attack knowing the retaliation would destroy your nation would be absurd.

8. Iranians are not absurd. They are a highly intelligent well-educated realistic and pragmatic people.

9. They are in fact more sophisticated and intelligent as a nation than Pakistan par example who has nuclear weapons and who has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

10. There is no reason to be more afraid of Iran in the event they do develop nuclear weapons than we are of Pakistan who already has them.

The only reason we feel safe with Pakistan is because we conduct diplomatic relations with Pakistan and the only reason we fear Iran is because we don't and haven't for 27 years.

Pakistan is a potential problem if the radical Islamists ever take over the government. Musharraf has already endured several assassination attempts. It is a very dicey situation over there right now, which is why we don't go after bin Laden or al Qaeda when we know they are hiding in that Northwest part of Pakistan. It might destabilize Pakistan and enable the extremists to come to power. At this point, the radicals are not in power, although the ISI is riddled with extremist sympathizers.

In Iran the radical Islamists ARE in power. Ahmadenijad believes (according to his own words) that it is his divinely ordained destiny to bring about Armageddon to bring back the 12th Imam who lives at the bottom of a well. This, according to that belief, will herald in the second coming of Christ.

Iran is a democracy, however, it must be remembered that most dissidents are persecuted and intimidated. The only ones allowed to run for office are the ones sanctioned by the ayatollahs. Also, I believe that Hitler was democratically elected; that in itself does not mean much.

The threat is not so much that the government of Iran will attack us; they know that would be suicide. The threat is that they will give the nukes to terrorist cells in which it would be more difficult to trace responsibility. There are conflicting opinions on how close Iran is to acquiring a nuclear device, but almost everyone, including the Europeans, are very concerned.

I don't put as much stock in what radical Islamists say to Americans as I do in what they say to their own people in their own language. And I've found that what they say to the West is often completely the opposite from what they say for American/Western consumption. Visit www.Memri.org for translations of speeches and sermons given by Islamic leaders and imams throughout the Middle East.

Pakistan has a bomb that was developed supposedly to defend themselves from India. The people of Pakistan hate us as much as Iran does, therefore they applauded Khan when he shared his nuclear capabilities and knowledge with the rest of Islam and even North Korea. It is terrifying that they could overthrow their government with just one assassination and again be allies with the Taliban and everyone else who hates the west.
Our problem with Iran is that we suffer from their abuse throughout the mid-east but cannot retaliate because the cowards use intermediaries to attack us and Israel. They will probably use an intermediary to sneak a bomb across our southern border, and God help us if the Democrats are running the show.

Originally Posted by Judy

1. Iran's President has said he wants to develop enriched uranium for peaceful commercial purposes for use in the nuclear power industry both for Iran's use and for sale of the products to other nations and customers.

2. Iran has signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

3. Iran does not have within its borders all the ingredients needed to manufacture a nuclear weapon.

4. Iran is a democracy and Admandinejab is only the President. He does not rule Iran and does not have the authority to develop let alone use a nuclear weapon against another nation pre-emptively without the approval and consent of the people of Iran.

5. I do not believe the people of Iran would ever authorize a nuclear attack against the United States or the nation of Israel.

6. In the improbable event they would and could, if they did, they would be obliterated by the United States.

7. To launch such an attack knowing the retaliation would destroy your nation would be absurd.

8. Iranians are not absurd. They are a highly intelligent well-educated realistic and pragmatic people.

9. They are in fact more sophisticated and intelligent as a nation than Pakistan par example who has nuclear weapons and who has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

10. There is no reason to be more afraid of Iran in the event they do develop nuclear weapons than we are of Pakistan who already has them.

The only reason we feel safe with Pakistan is because we conduct diplomatic relations with Pakistan and the only reason we fear Iran is because we don't and haven't for 27 years.

Who says we "feel safe with Pakistan"? Both Pakistan and India gained nuclear weapons technology against the wishes of the US. India used technology provided by the US for peaceful purposes to surreptitiously create a nuclear device back in 1974, and that unauthorized use of nuclear technology led to the US suspending its open policy of providing "peaceful" nuclear technology.

Furthermore, if you had any memory at all, you would recall the extreme unease at the outset of the War on Terror at the possibility that Musharraf's government would be overthrown by Muslim extremists who would then possess nuclear weapons. As a matter of fact, that same concern came to the fore when Musharraf himself came to power until it became obvious that his government would behave somewhat responsibly. In any case, I think that one could better describe the official assessment of the fact of nuclear weapons technology by Pakistan and India as being one of grudging acceptance rather than any sort of tacit blessing. We can't do anything about the fact, and so we work around it.

So again you present an argument based on an errant premise. I am beginning to wonder where you get your facts. Do you just make them up on the spot to suit your argument of the moment?

I also got a good chuckle out of this nonsense:

5. I do not believe the people of Iran would ever authorize a nuclear attack against the United States or the nation of Israel.

You don't believe? Well, won't that make the people of Israel feel a lot better in the face of Iran's president's proclamations to the contrary! You don't seem to have any comprehension of how governments or military forces around the world operate. EVEN HERE we have only so much control over what our President does with our military. In Iran, the government doesn't give a damn about what the people would "authorize," because it is not the role of the populace to authorize or not authorize anything. If Amahdinejad decides to nuke Israel, then Israel gets nuked. Period.

Your arguments are so unfounded in reality and child-like that I can't imagine what source facts you are even relying upon. So far, I haven't seen you actually present any facts, just errant supposition and the ascribing of opinions and beliefs to myself and (presumably) Americans in general that are unsubstantiated or just plain untrue.

It sounds to me like you're one of those Err America listeners who drank the Koolaid without bothering to check the facts to discover that what you're regurgitating ranges from intentional deception to outright lies.

Just my 2 cents but I think this is all ridiculous. What's that biblical saying - "He who is without sin cast the first stone?" Just because you've made some bad choices in your life when you were younger, doesn't make you evil - it makes you human. (Not to mention stupid!)

As for the question - how did he become president? Two words - KARL ROVE. I'm not a fan of Bush but I certainly don't think he's evil. I do however think he's CLUELESS. The real scary people are his advisors - Cheney, Rove, etc.

These neo-cons had a plan to go into Iraq all along. Even before 9-11. They chose Bush - someone who was basically a clean slate - to run for office. Someone who had no foreign policy backgound. And then they molded him into the kind of president who would push forth their agenda. If I remember correctly, when Bush was running the first time, he was AGAINST ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!

And with that new Woodward book coming out, it was revealed that Bush wanted to fire Rumsfeld but Cheney talked him out of it because it would give the appearence that they were wrong going into Iraq. Oh, never mind what's best for the country or the fact that our men and women are being killed over there almost every 15 minutes!

God, we need another Abe Lincoln! Did you know that his cabinet consisted of his most toughest adversaries? Some of whom actually looked down on him? But Lincoln set aside his own personal feelings and chose men he felt would best serve our country. When was the last time you heard a politician do something for national interest instead of personal interest??

crockerghost - you are entitled to your opinion about Iran as I am entitled to mine. What Iran's President says to its people is their business. Both Pakistan and India were supposed to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty but didn't...Iran did. Both Pakistan and India already have nuclear weapons...Iran doesn't.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

Israel has a nuclear weapons program and is one that it apparently concealed from the United States. We didn't take any action against Israel for actually developing a nuclear weapons program behind our backs.

So...:

1. Iran has no nuclear weapons

2. Iran was doing uraniun enrichment under the eyes of the IAEA inspectors with full transparency for nuclear POWER peaceful purposes.

3. Iran wants to continue to enrich its uranium for peaceful purposes under the full transparency of IAEA inspectors.

4. Until such time as there is some EVIDENCE that Iran is building a nuclear weapon..there is nothing to be concerned about.

5. Even if Iran develops a nuclear weapon, on what basis do we allow Israel, Pakistan and India to have nuclear weapons and refuse to allow Iran to have them?

Besides Iran would contaminate its own population with radio-active fall out if it would ever do the absurd of dropping a nuclear bomb on Israel.

You keep going back to this statement Ahmandinejab supposedly made at a university that was translated into "wiping Israel off the map". What he was talking about was not literally wiping them off the map with a nuclear bomb, he was addressing the Israeli Regime and removing it from power, not a genocidal attack on Israel to kill all of its citizens and residents. I've read some interpretations of that statement and this is not what was actually stated. The other translations make much more sense.

Anway, you're entitled to your feelings, your views and assessments of the situation. I'm entitled to mine and we'll agree to disagree and see what the future brings.