Thread: Lou Dobbs sounds off on REAL ID today

In Mexico, they have a national ID card, They are not allowed to rent a house, buy a home or bank without it.

Here is another way to look at this ID

The Growing National ID Trap More Articles


November 13, 2006

By Tom DeWeese

Technology can be a wonderful thing. From our garage door opening automatically on a rainy day to being able to find a lost pet, to quickly paying for an item by slapping a card over a "Pay Pass" reader, technology can make our lives better, more organized and safer.

There is no question that is would be a marvelous use of technology to be able to carry a copy of all your medical records, in case you fall ill or get hurt. Then the hospital will know all about your health condition including allergies, surgeries, dental problems and medications.

It would be a matter of comfort for parents to know that, if their child was kidnapped or wandered off, a chip could be activated to pinpoint where they are. The same is true in locating a lost pet.

It would be helpful for police and fire departments to have instant access to fingerprints and other personal identifying features of every single American. Then they really could solve cases in about an hour, just like on CSI.

Those are the wonderful visions promoters of the technology are using to sell their wares. The reality may create a world of Big-Brother controls on our ability to move about and live our lives in a free manner. For that reason, today in the age of such marvelous technology, Americans must be more vigilant and protective of their freedom than any time in our history.

As technology develops, data banks of personal information are being collected on everything from medical records, to financial and employment histories, to school records, to buying habits at the super market. The government is building data banks on farm animals. Our cars have little black boxes, which record data on our driving habits. In addition, the uses of video cameras, computer chips and biometric screening to monitor our activities are growing rapidly.

Step by step, using a wide variety of good excuses, Americans are allowing themselves to be fingerprinted, their eyes scanned, computer chips inserted under their skin, providing DNA, and more.

The most important question one must ask before relying completely on available technology is "who’s in control of it?" We can create technology to do literally anything. But should we? The question is important because some of the same technology that will make our lives better can, in the wrong hands, make our lives a living hell.

A short history


In 1996, Congress passed three major bills; The Welfare Reform Act, The Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act and the Medical Care Reform Act. Unknown to most in Congress, each of these bills carried certain identical language called Section 656, which laid the foundation for the creation of a National ID. The laws set a deadline of October, 2000.

In 1998, privacy advocates, including The American Policy Center, began to sound the alarm. In 1999, Senator Richard Shelby (R-AL) quietly introduced legislation to rescind Section 656 and effectively kill the National ID.

All of that effort was lost on September 11, 2001. Since then, the government has been energized to action. Not since Lyndon Johnson’s "Great Society" have the forces of Big Brother been so determined to build the size and power of government.

First came the new Homeland Security Department with 170,000 employees from 22 combined departments, including the U.S. Border Patrol, Coast Guard, Secret Service, Federal Emergency Management Agency, Transportation Security Administration, Immigration and Naturalization Service, Customs Service, Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, Federal Protective Service, FBI’s National Domestic Preparedness Office, Office of Domestic Preparedness, Federal Computer Incident Response Center, plus several lesser agencies of the same type. All of these agencies come under the control of one manager, the Secretary of Homeland Security.

Under the rashly conceived Patriot Act, that one Cabinet Secretary has the power to send federal law enforcement into private homes without a search warrant. Records and materials may be taken from private homes, computer records searched, phones tapped, and e-mails monitored, without the knowledge of the suspect.

As part of the Homeland Security effort, but not part of the Patriot Act, is a new Pentagon program called the Information Awareness Office. It may use military intelligence to spy on domestic citizens. This one program seeks to combine government and business data banks to monitor American’s cash withdrawals from banks, airline ticket purchasing, rental car transactions and purchase of firearms. In addition, it monitors credit card purchases, books purchased, every movie rented or bought, almost ever action undertaken by private American citizens.

Creation of the National ID


In 2005, Congress passed the Real ID Act, a "counter-terrorism" measure recommended by the 9/11 commission. The act sets national standards for driver’s licenses. The bill requires states to link databases containing sensitive personal information such as Social Security numbers. State databases must contain a digital image and a paper copy of each birth certificate and other identifying documents.

Although issued by the states, through the Department of Motor Vehicles, the Real ID is a national identification card system. States must comply with federal guidelines by May, 2008. If states fail to meet that deadline, then driver’s licenses from non-complying states will not qualify as official identification and so cannot be used to get on airplanes or obtain services from the federal government, including medical care.

Without authorized federal identification, access to voting booths may be denied. Many states now use computerized voting machines. In those states, a voter’s name is now issued a bar code and permanent identification numbers on registration lists. Unless everything matches up, one can’t be allowed in the voting booth.

As the Real ID Act is fully implemented, the driver’s license will be essential for one to be a full participant in American society. Failure to have it will literally shut one out from opening a bank account, getting a loan, gaining employment, marriage license medical care and purchase of firearms.


Yet, the government continues to deny that the Real ID Act is a National ID. Proponents argue that no national data bank will be established, that it will only use the records created by the state Departments of Motor Vehicles. At a minimum, states must include on their new driver’s license name, birth date, sex, ID number, a digital photo and employ "machine readable technology." Therein lies the danger.

Under the Act, Homeland Security can mandate additional requirements, including biometric scans such as finger printing, retinal scans, or facial scans. Homeland Security has expressed a strong desire to require Radio Frequency Identification chips (RFID).

Eventually, through the use of smart chips, the driver’s license will be transformed to include not only identification information, but employment, medical, financial and school records. It will serve as an ATM card, credit card, voter ID card, and, in the coming cashless society, access to your bank accounts.

All that is needed to combine such information in a wide variety of data banks now being created, both government and private, is the creation of one central identifying number. In anticipation of such an eventuality, the federal government, through the Pentagon is developing technology called "LifeLog" that would twist all of the information in public and private databanks into "narrative threads" giving government a chance to watch events of your life develop.

Once this is accomplished, consider the consequences. You’re driving in your car. Suddenly you are pulled over for a broken taillight. The officer asks for your driver’s license. You comply and he takes the card back to his cruiser, which has an onboard computer with access to the central data bank.

Suddenly, he gets out of the cruiser, pulls his gun and, hiding behind his car door, demands that you step out of your car with your hands up. What in the world could be wrong? In terror you comply. He steps up to you, holding the gun to your head and demands you lie on the ground as he puts on the cuffs and take you into custody.

At the station, you learn that there is an arrest warrant on your personal databank. It’s not you. How do you prove it? The data bank contains your picture, your fingerprints, your DNA. The official record says it's you. You now have lost access to your bank accounts. You have lost access to your identification, indeed your identity.

What happened? Perhaps an over-worked, underpaid data entry person put the wrong information into the system. Where is that person? Who do you see to fix it? Government is a massive place. Little departments are scattered everywhere. Imagine what it now takes to get a mistake taken off your credit report, and then imagine it 1,000 times worse.

The backers of such a system tell us that it will never be abused. It will exist solely to protect us. It will keep us safe form terrorists. Fingerprints and biometric scans will make it impossible to counterfeit, they assure us.

Not so. Here are the facts: The Frauhofer Research Institute In Darmstadt, Germany, set out to see whether it could fool fingerprint, facial recognition and retinal scan security technology. Starting with facial recognition, they could fool it by holding up a photo of the authorized person. Further, since the system must store the photos of authorized persons in a database, hackers can break into the computer and steal them. Some systems are more sophisticated and watch to see if the person moves before allowing access. To beat it, simply put a video in from of the scanner.

Fingerprints are even easier to foil. When you put your finger on the reader you actually leave your fingerprint. Investigators found that often they could simply cup their hands around the reader and breathe on the old print, whereupon it would show up and let them in. And retinal scans; simply a high-resolution picture did the trick.


Americans are being fingerprinted at work and school and even Disney World on a routine basis. It goes into a database. Nearly every single super market issues a discount card where shoppers can get incredible discounts off their bill, just by using the card. But to do so, establishes a data bank of your buying habits. Every credit card tracks where you purchase and establishes as database. Every bank profiles your finances and establishes a database. Should you acquire a sudden spike in your usual banking routine, the banks are required to notify the federal government, because you have broken your profile.

Manufactures are implanting radio frequency identification tags (RFID) into everything from clothing to razor blades before shipping to stores. They can now track where each item is after it’s sold and in your home. They can even track the items as you travel with them.

A National ID will not protect us from anything. It will not prevent future terrorist attacks. The 9/11 terrorists were not using false ID. Osama bin Laden will not be stopped by "paperwork." American freedom, however, will die.

More

So I'm supposed to trust my current government? The same government that has done nothing to stop illegal immigration! NOT ON YOUR LIFE WILL I EVER GIVE UP MY CIVIL LIBERTIES! We all here have been making a huge differnce on the state levels. We will keep doing our work and we will continue to grow. We are getting stonger every day. We don't need another ID, we just need our laws enforced and WE THE PEOPLE will make our government do it!!

I couldn't agree with you more, alexcastro.

Originally Posted by jp_48504

Anyone who has the knowledge can read information from the RFID chips off the passports. The information is not encrypted. Those who get their identity stolen deserve it for being foolish enough to hand it over to an incompetent system.

Jonathan. We have members of many political affiliations on ALIPAC, Libertarians are not the only ones opposed to a POLICE STATE ID Card. That would be like me saying those who support the Real ID endorse Communism or what happened in Germany before and during WWII. But I will not do that and neither should you.

This is a final warning, you need to stop blaming one group who does not agree with your ideals.

jp,
I went out for a few hours to have dinner with an old friend, and upon my return I see this 'final warning' from you over my free speech rights. I am within my rights to criticize one group for a particular problem if I so choose.

But the record on this list happens to show I have been criticising not only libertarians but also liberals, neocons, and various church groups for policies that encourage illegals to invade or stay in our country. The reason I have focused on libertarians in the few days is simply because they are the ones who have been the most vocal in opposing Real ID. And I am also with my rights to say that I do not think the Real ID is a 'police state' ID as you chose to mischaracterize it.

BTW, I also happened to notice that Lou Dobbs once again spoke in favor of Real ID although he said it should not be an unfunded mandate on the states.
Jonathan

[quote=April][quote=Dolly3275][quote=April][quote=Dolly3275][quote=April]

Originally Posted by "Dolly3275":fa9n6p7r

Originally Posted by "tinybobidaho":fa9n6p7r

Originally Posted by "Dolly3275":fa9n6p7r

Originally Posted by "tinybobidaho":fa9n6p7r

Originally Posted by "Dolly3275":fa9n6p7r

There is NOTHING from a credible, reliable, qualified source/article indicating that they are going to use a chip.

Also, it is going through-------there is NO debating it. States have until I believe June to comply or request an extension in order to begin to meet requirements to comply.

If they do neither.........The citizens from their states will NOT be able to use their drivers' licenses to board planes, enter government buildings, cross the border, etc.

Gee, Dolly, you almost sound gleeful with the prospect of this government lining us all up like sheep. Makes me wonder who you work for.

Sorry, there is no proof that the government is going to line us up like sheep and use the REAL ID for anything except to prevent illegals and potential terrorists from being able to use copied/reproduced fraudulent documents----by providing an ID that cannot be fraudulently copied/reproduced.

I do not work for anyone. So, if someone has a different opinion than the majority of those here---then there must be an ulterior motive??? Does Lou Dobbs now work for someone as well and have an ulterior motive????

So, a lot of people have a problem with the REAL ID.........Yet, nothing is being said about Ron Paul and the fact that he did not sign the SAVE ACT-----and wants open borders, no fence, and nothing in place to hold employers accountable for hiring illegals??

Your arguements don't hold water, Dolly. You're just arguing for the sake of arguement. You have no credibility or you wouldn't bring Ron Paul into it.

Why don't I have any crediblity----because I do not agree with you and others about the REAL ID??

And, why shouldn't Paul be brought into it??? Isn't the reason that most people have something against the REAL ID, going after employers who are hiring illegals, etc.------because Paul and the Libertarian principles/policies don't agree with it???

So, if you do not agree with the status quo here-------even though I am also one of the strongest fighters/opponents against illegals, illegal support groups, etc.---------then name calling and bullying attempts are used???

Should a moderator be able to personally attack someone, their opinions, their credibility-----just because they are a moderator on the site???

Your repeated attacks on Ron Paul and your general argumentative attitude is reminding me of someone we banned some time ago. Does the name Bren4824 ring a bell for you?[/quote:fa9n6p7r]

So, I am attacking and too argumentative because I do not support the hypocritical positions of Ron Paul...........and I do not support the opinions against the REAL ID??

Are you saying.........Unless you are a Libertarian and follow/support the opinions/policies of Libertarians (such as Ron Paul)-----then you are not welcomed here????[/quote:fa9n6p7r]

I am saying I recognize your vindictive syle and your love of argument. Bren was banned because she was rude and refused to go by the rules, it had nothing to do with her OPINIONS, although it did have to do with the way she tried to force them down everyones throat and alienated almost all the other posters. You might try changing you style of delivery and people might listen to you.[/quote:fa9n6p7r]

My "vindictive" style and my love of argument??? So, unless everyone just automatically agrees with the opinions of the majority here----they are just vindictive people who love to argue??

So, why is it not rude to personally attack me------because I do not automatically believe the conspiracy theories regarding the REAL ID???[/quote:fa9n6p7r]

What I said has nothing to do with what you believe, but how you interact with others on the board and how you present yourself. You are alot like Bren in the art of evasion and trying to change the subject and turn discussions around to your point of view, while being rude and argumentative. Are you Bren4824? You showed up shortly after she was banned, with the same attitude, views and dogged hatred of Ron Paul.[/quote:fa9n6p7r]

How "I" interact with others on this board??? I have been personally attacked----by even the Moderators-----because I did not support their opinions regarding the REAL ID. Yet, I am the one who is being argumentative and rude-----because I don't say........"Sure, tell me what to think. You are right."

I believe that there are other people besides me-----who have come to despise Paul. We are currently trying to get the SAVE ACT passed-----did Paul sign on in support???? No, he did not.

Dolly,
I agree they have piled on you over and over. But I have not seen any examples of you reacting inappropriately. You should be praised for your patriotism and perseverance. It's been a long day. Hope you can relax after this storm. Tomorrow is another day.
Jonathan

Originally Posted by jp_48504

Hey why not just cut to the chase, ID theft will be easy under real ID so a chip or other way will be needed.



It was done in the past. Perhaps Real ID supporters would prefer it.





Here is the previous Homeland Security. Look how things turned out for that nation.

Emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by jp_48504

Jonathan. We have members of many political affiliations on ALIPAC, Libertarians are not the only ones opposed to a POLICE STATE ID Card. That would be like me saying those who support the Real ID endorse Communism or what happened in Germany before and during WWII. But I will not do that and neither should you.

Pot, meet kettle.

This thread is really disturbing. Instead of debating the positive and negative aspects of REAL ID, it's chocked full of conjecture, personal attacks, "what ifs", non-sequitor arguments, conspiracy theories, "perspective(s) from the future looking back", straw man arguments, etc... And what's really disturbing is lots of this BS is coming from people who run this site.

After reading the REAL ID Act, I think this numbers link sums it up best:

http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/realidact021505.html

People can be for or against REAL ID, but let's deal in the realm of facts. Instead of personally attacking each other, wouldn't it be more productive to make sure the REAL ID benefits our cause and at the same time put pressure on states that issue DL's to illegal aliens?

Funs over folks, the reason we have been piling on Dolly and Jonathan is because Dolly is a user that was banned earlier and snuck back in.

Jonathan has just been busted trying to start up a new board and use ALIPAC's success to try and launch it.

Everyone is free to have different opinions at ALIPAC, but in this case we really let these two have it for being sneaky and trying to get some of our core activists to split forces over differences on Real ID.

We bent our rules a bit to allow folks to punch these two around more than usual because they were attempting to use our website and networks of activist to start their own group.

Their plan was to split up legendary ALIPAC activists over a disagreement about Real ID. They saw this as their window to grab several of you and splinter off.

If anyone wants to leave ALIPAC because we do not support Real ID, that is fine, but DO NOT come into this site that many of us have worked hard for years to create and try to pull a destructive move like Jonathan just did.

We have seen this kind of thing before where people that have done little to build this organization or any organization of their own suddenly want to have their own organization by taking from ALIPAC.

Each time it has happened, the new board they created throws rocks at us for a few weeks and then fizzles out.

The reason Jonathan was exposed was because he tried to seem innocuous at first but then made it clear he wanted to bash ALIPAC from his new board and his supporters dropped him.

I want to thank each of you that made us aware of his conspiracy.

I respect all of your opinions and greatly value your support and participation here.

William

[quote=SecureTheBorder]

Originally Posted by jp_48504

Hey why not just cut to the chase, ID theft will be easy under real ID so a chip or other way will be needed.



It was done in the past. Perhaps Real ID supporters would prefer it.





Here is the previous Homeland Security. Look how things turned out for that nation.

Emphasis mine.

[quote="jp_48504":hy921d39]Jonathan. We have members of many political affiliations on ALIPAC, Libertarians are not the only ones opposed to a POLICE STATE ID Card. That would be like me saying those who support the Real ID endorse Communism or what happened in Germany before and during WWII. But I will not do that and neither should you.[/quote]



Pot, meet kettle.

This thread is really disturbing. Instead of debating the positive and negative aspects of REAL ID, it's chocked full of conjecture, personal attacks, "what ifs", non-sequitor arguments, conspiracy theories, "perspective(s) from the future looking back", straw man arguments, etc... And what's really disturbing is lots of this BS is coming from people who run this site.

After reading the REAL ID Act, I think this numbers link sums it up best:

[url="http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/realidact021505.html"]http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/realidact021505.html[/url]

People can be for or against REAL ID, but let's deal in the realm of facts. Instead of personally attacking each other, wouldn't it be more productive to make sure the REAL ID benefits our cause and at the same time put pressure on states that issue DL's to illegal aliens?[/quote:hy921d39]

Securetheborder,

My concerns about Real ID are based on facts. Yes, conjecture on the future uses of the technology because that is part of the debate with any new technology. It is a discussion that needs to be had.

Yes, personal attacks have been allowed towards two users today.

Please read the reasons for that above.

W