Thread: Bigger fight ahead than every imagined.

Fomorian wrote:

And as I end, because I have to get back to work, I must ask a parting question to anyone that wishes to answer it. If my culture is so respected then why didn't anyone have words to say about the original poster's ultra European biased cultural summary of America? Shouldn't all of these cultural "respectors" have told him/her that he is in err. I saw praise for his view but "special" attention was given to mine. And there was even a flip-flopper in there for good measure.

Fomorian,
I'm not sure why you take such issue with Hosay's statement to begin with, or maybe I do and you really don't want to see the past for what it was. Maybe it's a grammatical thing, and the word "foundation" is tripping you up. Maybe I just read my US history wrong for over 50 years...who can say? My understanding is that when the country was colonized and settled it was by white Europeans. (America that is...don't take me down the native American trail here). Later, African slaves were kidnapped (most by other tribesmen) and sold to white slavers, who brought them to the colonies. Nary a one had a formal education, were familiar with mechanical tools, and most didn't even speak one another's language. In a strange and difficult environment these slaves would likely not have survived one year without their (and it pains me greatly to use this word) masters. They simply could not have been in any way architects of the foundation of this country we now call America. That is not to be demeaning, it is simply a statement of fact. Focus on the word foundation, preceded in Hosay's statement by the word proper, which lends itself to mean (in my mind anyway) "true and original initial parlimentary construct". Actually, when quoting Hosay, you borrowed the word "cultural" from a previous sentence other than the one you underscored anyway...

What I'm getting at here (again) is that the crux of your position is your particular disdain for Europeans and their culture. Maybe you are a product of white colonialism in Africa, or maybe a descendant of someone who was. At any rate, this is not Europe, it is America. We do things differently here and for good reason. I've taken the liberty to deconstruct and recompose the thread in a format that is easily followed by you and anyone else interested in this oddesy. Read it through again and see if it reveals anything further to you. If so, then run with it...If not, well then I tried. Either way I'm moving on to other things and I wish you well in all things future.
Before I go however I want to touch on a couple of other points...

1. Nationality. I can change nationalities as many times as I want. I can even have two or more.

Not in America you can't. One right of citizenship only- no dual citizens. If that is what you want you will have to go somewhere else, or be a "guest" in this country for the duration.

2. Culture. If I feel like practicing Chinese cultural traditions, I am free to do so. And for all practical purposes, on the inside, I would be Chinese.

Ridiculous assumption...If an Arab lives in Jerusalem and practices Judaism, is he an Israelite or simply a Jew? If I eat Mexican everyday for the rest of my life and listen to Mariachi bands will I become Mexican on the inside? Hardly!

3. Race. I am told that there are three races, some scientists say there are more. But this is the only one that I cannot change. I will be bound with my black skin until death, so I have learned to love it in a climate where it is despised but too taboo to say it out loud.

Where do you live anyway? Can I come there and speak on racism to whites or blacks? Would my message be well received by either? Maybe I'm just too caught up in rural America to understand but I thought that sort of thing went the way of the dinosaur. You are welcome to come live here if things are really that intolerable there. I will even help you to find a house. I think the key to your reply was in the word "love". I don't love my skin or it's color. Matter of fact everything with me is sort of monochrome, and I seldom even notice the color of a man's skin unless someone asks me, "What's he look like?".

4. Religion. Pick one and live with it.

Great idea with one caveat; chose your faith wisely and commit to it completely.

5. Tribal. One of the oldest but still relevent. It is possible to change your tribal affiliation.

Not in America again my friend. Native Americans are very protective of tribal boundaries and there are those here that will attest to that fact first-hand. Matter of fact I read just today that the Feds don't recognize such things as legal either.

As for your assessment of Nimrod, I have to respectfully disagree. He can come here and offer an opinion as often as he likes but that doesn't make him part of the effort. I referred to him as a cretin for a reason, and I spelled it out very clearly. He is bigoted and filled with resentment and hate. That won't serve him very well in life and it won't give him a pass here either. Matter of fact, I would guess the mods already have an eye on him and he may well be nothing more than a memory soon if he continues to be divisive.

Good luck to you and I am glad we got the chance to get acquainted. It would be a pleasure to meet you one day and share personal stories apart from the online forum. Please feel free to PM me anytime! I'd stick around longer, but I have some patriots to muster before next weekend and they tend to lose interest if I don't keep them stimulated!
__________________________________________________ _________
The thread: (condensed)

Hosay wrote:

That means speaking English and acknowledging that the historical cultural foundation of the country, which is British, meaning English, Scottish and Welsh, ss the proper foundation of the country. Any person of any race or skin color or previous cultural heritage can become an American!

Fomorian wrote:

If you can back up your theory with historical evidence pertaining to the underlined, and I am most assured that you cannot and will only make yourself look more foolish, I would be happy to share ideas with you to the contrary. If you can't, I'll leave you to stew in your own ignorance and call it a day.

Hosay wrote:

The 13 colonies were ruled by ... Great Britain and populated mostly with people from Great Britain.
Capitalism was systematized by Adam Smith, a Scotsman, in 1776.
The foundation of our system of government was contributed by John Locke, an Englishman with his writings: Two Treatises on Civil Government and A Letter Concerning Toleration, about 1689.
Look at the ancestry of all the founders of the United States.

This is not to neglect African-Americans who have been here since approximately 1650 and have made their own contributions to this nation.

Fomorian wrote:

Since you failed to answer my question, I'll lay it down for you.
The "proper foundation of the country" lies in the millions of African slaves that made cotton king in the antebellum south. It lies in the hard work of the Chinese that built the railroads that made this country an industrial powerhouse. It lies in the hearts of the Tejanos that fought against Mexico. And there are many other I didn't mention because of space.

This "default" attitude is deadly for our cause. You know it but out of privledge or pride you can't bring yourself to the fact.
When you wake up, I just hope it's not too late!

Hosay wrote:

You can build railroads and plant cotton and be heroic in battle, but it doesn't get your country very far unless the systems of government and economic activity can effectively harness those accomplishments.

The African slaves, Chinese, and Tejanos were working within a system that has its origins in Great Britain. Any person of any race or culture can become a part of that system. That is why the United States has been able to absorb so many immigrants in the past.

American Elizabeth added:

This nation was not founded on this kind of person. This nation was founded on people who were willing to sacrfice even their lives, if needed, to ensure the freedom we all enjoy right now. Many worked hard when they came here, but this nation and its potential had already been established for them by those here, mainly, of Brittish and other European peoples.

This society is a model of those ideals. Not the ideals of China, Mexico, Africa, Tibet, or any other society, no of Brittish and European ideals. To deny this is simply ignorance.
Have other ethnic groups contributed and become part of it? Certainly, and made themselves into fine Americans. BTW, being considered an American is not a racist thing it is a patriotic thing, and something to be proud of.

Fomorian wrote:

I know you didn't really read my response because you're on a whole different tangent. I was referring to the underlined portion. You know, the whole, "proper culture", statement.

I'm an very strong American of African roots and I reject European culture. I embrace American culture, which is derived (in my scope of observation) from Africa, because that's what I choose to value.
Who governed and who was president and everything else to stroke the ego of people with your view is besides the point.

BearFlagRepublic replied:

What is your scope of observation? Our nation's culture is derived far more from Europe than from any other continent. We are a huge part of Western Civilization. I respect anyone of any race who will embrace Western Civilization and be a part of our nation. Everything from freedom, to individualism, to our economy, to democracy, to our religion, to our language started in Europe. Its where the industrial Revolution started. Where the Scientific Revolution began. Where the Enlightenment and the Reformation happened. Almost every major aspect of our culture derived from Europe. Hardly something to "reject."

Fomorian wrote:

Well BFR,
When you say our culture, I know your are not on the same page.
Other than speaking English in public, I don't see how you came to your conclusions.

Nimrod weighs in:

Technology is not culture to me, but a tool to propagate, preserve and disseminate your culture.

Since we both know verbatim what words we wrote to one another I will skip forward in the interst of saving space….


Nimrod weighs in again:

And then there's the tricky interpretation of assimilation. As long as you observe your freedom within the boundaries of law, that is assimilation.

Think about it! Americans (I presume), are telling another American that his definition of being an American is wrong or insufficient. They don't get to make the rules on that!

If you were truly accepted into the American family,as you are a real American, then why is your culture such a big deal? Because if they get you on this, then there is nothing left but to bow your knee to European culture. It's all about control and domination. I say continue to reject European culture, you'll be much happier!

WRONG NIMROD: That is not the definition of assimilation. That is the definition of obeying the law. If that is all being American (assuming you would know) means to you, it's time to go back to class. Oh wait, you weren't talking about ACTUALLY being American were you? You said "assimilation". My bad!

Control and domination? Gimme a break! You are the one seeking control, living in one country, rejecting it's cultural values in favor of those you brought (presumably) with you. Worse yet, encouraging everyone within sight of the digitally printed word to do likewise! Like I said, go back to class...and this time pick a scholar instead of a commie or socialist to learn from!
Cayla responds:

Either you have bought into the entire diversity BS, or you are an illegal trying to divide and conquer the Americans who are demanding our laws be enforced. This is not about race or ethnicity!!!! This is about respect for US laws and wanting the criminals who blatantly ignore these laws to suffer the consequences. Nothing more, nothing less.

nttrixie adds:

The proponents of illegal immigration will always try to make it about race - they are devoid of any reasonable, legal, sane, honorable argument. And hey, screaming 'racists!' in the past has worked quite well.

If 'American' comes first, I don't care what one calls themselves. I don't care what they eat, wear, how they fix their hair, watch on TV, or what language they speak in their homes. We all have our personal, family cultures we practice in our own homes.

Originally Posted by TheFomorian

Originally Posted by Nimrod

TheFomorian,
It looks like you've gotten yourself into a good old fashioned gang tackle. They are hitting you high and low.
First the heavy handed European culture warrior steps up to the plate, no doubt with pursed lips, typing away thinking to themselves, "I'll show this uppity boy a thing or two!" Obviously that fell flat and they sent in the soft spoken "voice of reason" with flowery undertones of morality and visions of kumbaya. But when the fat lady has sung, both approaches were constructed to get you to stand there with your proud self and form your ungrateful black lips to sing the praises, and only the praises, of European culture. Doing otherwise is encouraging division.

And then there's the tricky interpretation of assimilation. As long as you observe your freedom within the boundaries of law, that is assimilation. By letting them tell you that the phrase African American is wrong is a bit arrogant, don't you think? Notice the other "voices" cueing in as if they have been practicing this? Notice how they talk about you or indirectly about the subject but never counter directly. That should tell you two things: They are trying to galvanize their view and that they seek that particular control over you (African Americans).

Think about it! Americans (I presume), are telling another American that his definition of being an American is wrong or insufficient. They don't get to make the rules on that! Hispanics have been saying a long time that our side isn't all that it's cracked up to be and I think they are right. If you were truly accepted into the American family,as you are a real American, then why is your culture such a big deal? Because if they get you on this, then there is nothing left but to bow your knee to European culture. It's all about control and domination. I say continue to reject European culture, you'll be much happier!

PS I liked that channel, I'm going to write it to see if I can get it in my area.

Nina jibu! Ngoja!
Ninakwenda kukaa moja kwa moja na kufufuliza kwa moyo!

Tell me what you think about Bassey Ikpi. I feel her spoken word I hope you will too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcOWR3uc0E

She ties it up beautifully at the end.

Mrs. Ikpi is the truth!
Subiri kidogo!
Nisidawa ya moto ni moto kwa kuwa sina!
Badala ya kuumwa, kimya!

How does the saying go? The road to Hell is paved w/good intentions.

Originally Posted by ConfusedGnome

umm, the immigrants are not trying to destroy America.

Yes, that may be what the result is. But the vast majority came here for a better life. If they hurt us in the process, well I don't they care. But they came here for something better, not to destroy us.

Originally Posted by AmericaTheBeautiful

nntrixie,

Do you mean that is what the illegals want?

Why would they want that? They can never know which one of them will be deported next. So they all have to live in fear.

Of course the Government would like us to believe they are doing something about it.

They don't have to "live in fear" they can go back to their country of origin.
Instead of showing their patriotism for their homeland here in the US they can GO BACK to their homeland and make it a better place.

Originally Posted by dyehard39

All of my post have had BOLDNESS. It is just plain old years of habit.

Like I said before, if the members want me to stop, I will. I do not think that anyone who read my post, only pay attention to the bold words. I will not comment any futher on the issue. Illegal immigration is to important to get bogged in spelling, etc. What do you call it?

There I go again.

I think your posts are top notch dyehard39. The boldness of it all just emphasizes the points you're trying to make. Be bold!

Originally Posted by TheFomorian

Well BFR,
When you say our culture, I know your are not on the same page.
Other than speaking English in public, I don't see how you came to your conclusions.
Take a closer look:
Having my wife lock my hair while we listen to jazz. The children eating dinner, fingers sticky with fufu, making jokes in Igbo and Yoruba. On sundays we go to a Christian church, let's not forget Christianity was practiced in Africa long before Europe. On December 26 we celebrate Kwanzaa, not because of the age of the holiday, but because it is positive and African American.
My children study math, African diasporic Literature, African diasporic history. And at the same time, I can stand up and say I and my family are 100% American.

That last sentence nails it Fomorian. Good thoughts.

You can make jokes in Igbo or Yoruba but the fact is that:

Africans are, as I type this, trying desperately to get to Europe on rickety rafts. Estimates are that some 30,000 per year are dying at sea trying to get out of Africa and into Europe.

[edit: Google "canary islands africa immigration" and you will find numerous articles proving the above.]

Most of Africa represents the failure or non-existence of a economic and political system that can sustain people at even a minimal material level or minimal level of human dignity.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.

So being American is distinctly different than being African.

The material prosperity, economic dynamism, and technological advancement of the United States is based fundamentally on a system put in place by English, Scottish, and European settlers.

If you are an American, you have internalized this culture, whether you admit it or not and whether you like it or not.

If you would prefer to be an African, you can go the opposite way from all the people fleeing Africa. As you fly over the coast of Africa in the airplane (which ticket you paid for with the wages of your American prosperity), you can look at the rafts below.

Originally Posted by Sam-I-am

Originally Posted by TheFomorian

Well BFR,
When you say our culture, I know your are not on the same page.
Other than speaking English in public, I don't see how you came to your conclusions.
Take a closer look:
Having my wife lock my hair while we listen to jazz. The children eating dinner, fingers sticky with fufu, making jokes in Igbo and Yoruba. On sundays we go to a Christian church, let's not forget Christianity was practiced in Africa long before Europe. On December 26 we celebrate Kwanzaa, not because of the age of the holiday, but because it is positive and African American.
My children study math, African diasporic Literature, African diasporic history. And at the same time, I can stand up and say I and my family are 100% American.

That last sentence nails it Fomorian. Good thoughts.

Originally Posted by Sam-I-am

Originally Posted by TheFomorian

Well BFR,
When you say our culture, I know your are not on the same page.
Other than speaking English in public, I don't see how you came to your conclusions.
Take a closer look:
Having my wife lock my hair while we listen to jazz. The children eating dinner, fingers sticky with fufu, making jokes in Igbo and Yoruba. On sundays we go to a Christian church, let's not forget Christianity was practiced in Africa long before Europe. On December 26 we celebrate Kwanzaa, not because of the age of the holiday, but because it is positive and African American.
My children study math, African diasporic Literature, African diasporic history. And at the same time, I can stand up and say I and my family are 100% American.

That last sentence nails it Fomorian. Good thoughts.

Thanks Sam.

Originally Posted by nntrixie

Of course it has nothing to do with being white - except to the invaders. It seems to be very important to them - I mean after all, as I have heard, 'only white people can be racist' -

So while race has nothing to do with it for us - it seems to have a lot to do with it for others.

Exactly . it wasn't a white who said ," everything for the bronze race, nothing for the white one " .

It wasn't the whites who had the ' Million Man March ' where the racist farra-con insulted our race and nation .

It's not the whites who are building paramilitary camps all over our nation who want to submit all to their sect .

But it's always the whites who are the racist . Always the only slave owners who ever existed ,yet the truth is we bought the slaves from their evil black slave masters ,[ we too were evil, but not alone ] ,,bet your history teacher never told you that and you won't see it in any Alex Haley 'Roots 'movie!

Already the blacks and whites who built this nation are being divided by the enemy's within .

United we stand or divided we fall .

Originally Posted by ConfusedGnome

umm, the immigrants are not trying to destroy America.

Yes, that may be what the result is. But the vast majority came here for a better life. If they hurt us in the process, well I don't they care. But they came here for something better, not to destroy us.

They blew this false cover when the un-gratefuls got in our streets and flew their flags while stomping and urinating on ours . This isn't mexico !

And the others held signs saying they would behead anyone who insults islam . This is not Saudi Arabia !