Thread: Bigger fight ahead than every imagined.

So many little things to cause division - so little time to address them all.

As Cayla so clearly put it -

We are a melting pot. The true American culture comes from combination of people from all parts of the world.

I am an American Indian - not a Native American. From a psychological standpoint, the word you use first to describe yourself is how you see yourself.

We are all Americans here, fighting a battle to keep illegals from overwhelming our country. It doesn't matter to me if the skin of these illegals is green, purple or chartreuse. In the end, we all bleed red. That is our common bond of humanity.

For me, it's about culture - I am proud of my culture, but I understand that my Tribe is part of a bigger Tribe - America.

Countries were formed by like-minded people to allow a certain culture to flourish. And culture is formed by a mind-set.

The invasion of our southern boundary threatens the culture that is America. That is what I object to. I have no problem with that culture -- I simply don't want to live in it. And I believe that it is being forced down my throat.

Holding one culture above all others - to me - creates the divisions. It's an isolationist stand. There is no mutual respect.

I believe that on this board we all have a common "vision" regardless of our ethnic backgrounds. We stand together to fight illegals which are threatening to overwhelm our culture. Please let us not lose sight of that!!

Originally Posted by cayla99

Nimrod, you have no idea what color my skin is or what my ethnic heritage is.
I refuse to let you or anyone else on this site try to turn this into an ethnic or racial war. I am an AMERICAN. Either you have bought into the entire diversity BS, or you are an illegal trying to divide and conquer the Americans who are demanding our laws be enforced. This is not about race or ethnicity!!!! This is about respect for US laws and wanting the criminals who blatantly ignore these laws to suffer the consequences. Nothing more, nothing less. Let's keep to topic and not turn this into something that it never should become.

Cayla, you are so right - don't let's get into a divisive debate here -

We are here to save this country and prevent further tragedies - like Bren's ----

For far too long we have allowed government and their helpers to keep us divided - therefore they can get horrors like this in place.

Let's show everyone we are serious about America, Americans, the rule of law and perserving all three.

The issue of illegal immigration has not divided by family. Some of them are Hispanic and some even here illegally, but my family remains a unit. They know how I feel about illegal immigration and they understand. My grandchildren have grandparents who are Native American, (that is what they chose to call her) Nigerian, Norweigan, English and Afro-American. We are a unit and we are there for each other no matter where we originated.
I do not think my original post was about race. Illegal aliens have tried to make it about race.
Our fight against illegal immigration has been united as Americans.

Originally Posted by dyehard39

Originally Posted by bren223

I know I for one can say that this illegal invasion can destroy a family. Being the victim of a crime commited by an illegal, I know first hand the pain, suffering and loss one can feel. Is anyone understanding the word ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is the real issue at hand. Until you have lost as my family and myself has, you would never understand. Joshua would have been starting kindergarten Monday. Instead, I get to sit through a trial and pray justice is done. Im sure somewhere in anywhere USA, an anchor baby gets to his or her first day of school. Joshua and my brother Ronnie sit on my kitchen shelf.

Every American is a victim of illegal immigration. We all pay the price. I have directly been a victim and if any members of my family is victimized or friends, it affects me. Some lose a family member, some economically and we are all victims.

Anchor babies are the first in line at head start or kindergarten. My friends grandson had to wait a year because the class was too full.
A fiend was passed over for a job because she could not speak Spanish.
My daughter who works with the disables, had to hire a Spanish speaking assistance to service Spanish speaking and English speaking clients. and the list goes on and on. That is just some of the ways illegal immigration affect all Americans.

Absolutly, dyehard 39, I was just telling my side of the story. Like I said the main issue is DO THEY UNDERSTAND THE WORD ILLEGAL

Originally Posted by dyehard39

The issue of illegal immigration has not divided by family. Some of them are Hispanic and some even here illegally, but my family remains a unit. They know how I feel about illegal immigration and they understand. My grandchildren have grandparents who are Native American, (that is what they chose to call her) Nigerian, Norweigan, English and Afro-American. We are a unit and we are there for each other no matter where we originated.
I do not think my original post was about race. Illegal aliens have tried to make it about race.
Our fight against illegal immigration has been united as Americans.

The proponents of illegal immigration will always try to make it about race - they are devoid of any reasonable, legal, sane, honorable argument. And hey, screaming 'racists!' in the past has worked quite well.

If 'American' comes first, I don't care what one calls themselves. I don't care what they eat, wear, how they fix their hair, watch on TV, or what language they speak in their homes. We all have our personal, family cultures we practise in our own homes.

When we come together as a nation, we need to speak one language - that's imperative - otherwise we will fail. Inability to communicate breeds distrust and that leads to other things.

We need to have a common goal - maintaining and sustaining a free nation for our future generations. Otherwise our future generations will be living in the bad situations a lot of Americans came here to escape.

Nimrod wrote:

TheFomorian,
It looks like you've gotten yourself into a good old fashioned gang tackle. They are hitting you high and low.

and

First the heavy handed European culture warrior steps up to the plate

and

Obviously that fell flat and they sent in the soft spoken "voice of reason" with flowery undertones of morality and visions of kumbaya

and

both approaches were constructed to get you to stand there with your proud self and form your ungrateful black lips to sing the praises, and only the praises, of European culture. Doing otherwise is encouraging division.

and

Notice how they talk about you or indirectly about the subject but never counter directly. That should tell you two things: They are trying to galvanize their view and that they seek that particular control over you (African Americans).

and

If you were truly accepted into the American family,as you are a real American, then why is your culture such a big deal?

and

Because if they get you on this, then there is nothing left but to bow your knee to European culture. It's all about control and domination. I say continue to reject European culture, you'll be much happier!

Wow! Where do I start??? You are so bigoted and misguided on so many levels it really makes no sense to even waste my time addressing your issues. Are you sure you meant to post on the ALIPAC (against illegal immigration ) site? I think your time would be better used over on the Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson campaign to foment racism and hatred, or maybe LaRaza (the race) could use your pride and arrogance to further their cause of division and domination of North America.

Even your choice of screen name shouts ME ME ME, my good Nimrod (mighty hunter and king).

I certainly wouldn't define your contributions so far as supportive, either of the cause we come here to rally around, or of your (and my) black brother whom you so subtly rebuke for his public affirmation that hyphenated America simply will not work. No one here gang-tackled him for his opinions or his culture. To the contrary, his assertions were received and responded to with love and compassion and he was (and is still) a valued and respected contributor on this site.

I still see in his reference to being "not my enemy but also not my subject" an underlying resentment to what my ancestors may have done to his ancestors ( what that is I cannot say because I do not know the exact paths of either of our lineage). I did not choose to address that resentment, even though I made no reference to subjection in any form or fashion. I felt Fomorian was intelligent enough to recognize the emotion behind the remark for himself and I still do. That said, I note that you also noticed his reservations and are attempting to energize and amplify them to the point of anger by poking your thumb in not only the eyes of "European" Americans, but also Fomorian's with your left-handed insult about "bowing your knee to European culture".

I take personal exception to your description of my commentary as "flowery undertones of morality and visions of kumbya". If you think the message I was conveying was an "undertone of morality" then you are clueless as to the depth and breadth of my (or anyone else's for that matter) moral compass. To put it in a form you can easily digest, "It is what it is!", and it seems you are the only revolutionary mind attempting to make it into something else.I take it you base your suppositions on all you have to draw from, which is your own almagamated emotional bias.

Insomuch as kumbaya is realative to the discussion, perhaps I indeed do fantasize when I speak of a world where all men are brothers and peace is a natural by-product of those who value their brothers and sisters above themselves. So long as men and women like yourself seek to antagonize and destroy dialogue through vitriolic hyperbole and the promotion of cultural division, that world will only exist in the hearts of those truly willing to give more than they receive.

No one is asking you or any other American to forget his/her roots or culture. The point is that carrying it around and waving it like a banner in the face of all you meet has the exact opposite effect of what you hope to achieve. (In case that concept is over your head, see the reaction to last year's May Day pro-illegal immigration rally)

As Americans, we should revel in our differences because those differences are what has made us great in the past. We should teach our children where we came from and how we got here. We should encourage our children to learn from mistakes of the past and rather than immersing them in a past culture, prepare them for a future one. We should also give those same children a clear and discernable message that as world resources dwindle and populations grow, only one of two scenarios will materialize. Either we learn to co-exist in peace or we destroy all that man has collectively constructed. I vote for the peaceful solution, and I think your vote has already been recorded.

Formorian,

Because this cretin remarked that no one is addressing you directly, let me say this;

I know you understood EXACTLY what I wrote to you and I personally respect you for your thoughfulness, your wisdom, and your intellectual response. I respect your culture, and I admire you for sharing it with your children. They of course will also need to be equipped for the "developing" culture of today's America, and you seem to be on top of that also, given your reference to Christianity. I hope you will be just as vigorous in sharing with them the morals and values that will serve them well in adulthood, so that they can help lead men of all colors and faiths on a straight path down an increasingly darkened and crooked road.

I also took note of your reminder that the entire conversation began with your exception to another poster's comment about "culture", not "race". Certainly the two are inexplicibly intertwined, indistinguishable one from the other by reason of logic. Obviously the discussion of one cannot exclude the other without intentional aversion within the discussion. There's no reason to tapdance around the issue of race, and no one owes anyone else an apology here. (Except maybe Nimrod and who'd believe him anyway) I'm comfortable in my skin, you're comfortable in yours, my Hispanic wife is comfortable in hers, and we all are one people in God's eyes. If that is kumbaya then welcome to my fantasy!

Originally Posted by Nimrod

Hispanics have been saying a long time that our side isn't all that it's cracked up to be and I think they are right.

Which hispanics? The ones who beat their chests and scream "BROWN PRIDE" and "VIVA LA RAZA." Then turn around and call us racists???

The "rules" are that every race in America has the right to ethnocentrism except European derived peoples. You may see my views as Euro-centric, and they are. I refuse to be intimidated by PC hypocrites who bask in the glory of ethnic chauvanism of non-Western cultures, and turn around and say that people of European descent must shut up, have no pride, believe your people are evil, and have no collective interests.

No one is asking you or any other American to forget his/her roots or culture. The point is that carrying it around and waving it like a banner in the face of all you meet has the exact opposite effect of what you hope to achieve.

Ahhh......a breath of fresh air, thank you tiredofapathy, again!!!

It is so tue that our modern culture here in America is "mongrelized" from not only the early Brittish culture (BTW, I do not have those Brittish roots for the most part), but also others too. The same goes for our modern American English, it too is a mongrel language.

Knowing this, makes me more proud to be an American and more determined to fight to keep this OURS, and not allow foreign invaders to come in and supplant my language and my culture. I refuse to acknowledge them when they rattle on in Spanish as THEY are the outsiders.

Nimrod, please take a lesson from tiredofapathy. The above quote is so true. You cannot expect me, or anyone else to feel an affinity for your ethnic roots and stories, when you shove it into anyone's face and expect them to embrace it. That is what we have been saying all along with the illegal aliens, their marches and their attitudes......well, it goes for anyone else.

Originally Posted by Nimrod

TheFomorian,
It looks like you've gotten yourself into a good old fashioned gang tackle. They are hitting you high and low.
First the heavy handed European culture warrior steps up to the plate, no doubt with pursed lips, typing away thinking to themselves, "I'll show this uppity boy a thing or two!" Obviously that fell flat and they sent in the soft spoken "voice of reason" with flowery undertones of morality and visions of kumbaya. But when the fat lady has sung, both approaches were constructed to get you to stand there with your proud self and form your ungrateful black lips to sing the praises, and only the praises, of European culture. Doing otherwise is encouraging division.

And then there's the tricky interpretation of assimilation. As long as you observe your freedom within the boundaries of law, that is assimilation. By letting them tell you that the phrase African American is wrong is a bit arrogant, don't you think? Notice the other "voices" cueing in as if they have been practicing this? Notice how they talk about you or indirectly about the subject but never counter directly. That should tell you two things: They are trying to galvanize their view and that they seek that particular control over you (African Americans).

Think about it! Americans (I presume), are telling another American that his definition of being an American is wrong or insufficient. They don't get to make the rules on that! Hispanics have been saying a long time that our side isn't all that it's cracked up to be and I think they are right. If you were truly accepted into the American family,as you are a real American, then why is your culture such a big deal? Because if they get you on this, then there is nothing left but to bow your knee to European culture. It's all about control and domination. I say continue to reject European culture, you'll be much happier!

PS I liked that channel, I'm going to write it to see if I can get it in my area.

Nina jibu! Ngoja!
Ninakwenda kukaa moja kwa moja na kufufuliza kwa moyo!

Tell me what you think about Bassey Ikpi. I feel her spoken word I hope you will too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcOWR3uc0E

She ties it up beautifully at the end.

Originally Posted by tiredofapathy

Formorian,

Because this cretin remarked that no one is addressing you directly, let me say this;

When I was a child about 6 or seven years old, and I am not proud of this in no way, I used to pick on my sister from time to time. I would destroy her new toys. Anything to get her to cry. But one day, I saw two boys that wanted to take her candy away from her. I saw them hit her and literally lost my mind. Without making overt references to violence, I made them both feel the heat of my anger to the point that medial attention was needed. Point of the story: Yes we Americans fight amongst ourselves,and that is perfectly normal, but when outsiders want a piece of the action, they find out very quickly that their choice was a big mistake.
That "cretin" that you speak of is really on our side and have been for a long time.

I know you understood EXACTLY what I wrote to you and I personally respect you for your thoughfulness, your wisdom, and your intellectual response. I respect your culture, and I admire you for sharing it with your children. They of course will also need to be equipped for the "developing" culture of today's America, and you seem to be on top of that also, given your reference to Christianity. I hope you will be just as vigorous in sharing with them the morals and values that will serve them well in adulthood, so that they can help lead men of all colors and faiths on a straight path down an increasingly darkened and crooked road.

I also took note of your reminder that the entire conversation began with your exception to another poster's comment about "culture", not "race". Certainly the two are inexplicibly intertwined, indistinguishable one from the other by reason of logic. Obviously the discussion of one cannot exclude the other without intentional aversion within the discussion. There's no reason to tapdance around the issue of race, and no one owes anyone else an apology here. (Except maybe Nimrod and who'd believe him anyway) I'm comfortable in my skin, you're comfortable in yours, my Hispanic wife is comfortable in hers, and we all are one people in God's eyes. If that is kumbaya then welcome to my fantasy!

(My emphasis added)
The evolution of the human societal construct has spawned five main parts, three of which we use in this society more than the other two. I would not insult your intelligence, but I must list them for the people that may not know what they are:
1. Nationality. I can change nationalities as many times as I want. I can even have two or more.
2. Culture. If I feel like practicing Chinese cultural traditions, I am free to do so. And for all practical purposes, on the inside, I would be Chinese.
3. Race. I am told that there are three races, some scientists say there are more. But this is the only one that I cannot change. I will be bound with my black skin until death, so I have learned to love it in a climate where it is despised but too taboo to say it out loud.
4. Religion. Pick one and live with it.
5. Tribal. One of the oldest but still relevent. It is possible to change your tribal affiliation.

So as you can see, it is possible to talk about race and culture and focus on one without the other.
And as I end, because I have to get back to work, I must ask a parting question to anyone that wishes to answer it. If my culture is so respected then why didn't anyone have words to say about the original poster's ultra European biased cultural summary of America? Shouldn't all of these cultural "respectors" have told him/her that he is in err. I saw praise for his view but "special" attention was given to mine. And there was even a flip-flopper in there for good measure.