Thread: Concerns about the Real ID Act

Same here, BB! Nobody seemed to care when computer technology got to the point where any document could be forged, but now a method to reign in this kind of fraud is met with huge suspicion. I think this sounds like a great idea.

BobC:

I'm just pointing out that the Immigration reform movement has some lack of concensus on Real ID. Some christians dont like the biometrics associating numbers with the head and the hand due to scripture. I'm just pointing out their concerns.

A lot of gun owners dont like the bill and a lot of civil liberty types that dont like illegal immigration have concerns as well.

W

Hey Bbean. Here is the question I have for you. Why does the government need to have this power and information on every law abiding legal citizen of the US? Is that cool?

If knowledge ='s power then does information = power? Would total information = total power?

Do we want to give more power to the same government that at this time has ordered our border patrol to stand down?

W

I know, ALIPAC. But I'm a pragmatic kinda guy. I see a HUGE problem on our horizon--the US gradually merging with the Third World which will only bring us down to that level if we don't control the influx. I want to examine real solutions. I think--and I don't want to sound like a jerk--that using Bible verses to rule out tech solutions is a little crazy. I mean this is what makes people stop taking this issue serioulsly.

BobC:

Please understand what Im doing. Im providing you with the different objections to FRT.

The Christians dont like it for certain reasons.

Gun owners feel it will be used to track their arms.

Civil liberties groups feel it is an invasion of privacy.

Here is another concern. There is some evidence that the Open Borders Lobby that favors the new trade agreements CAFTA and FTAA think that we should use biometric IDs for internal security instead of border patrol agents. They just want the biometric databases and terrorist lists shared by multiple nations.

No more borders, free flow of materials, services, and PEOPLE including anyone in Mexico that wants to come north.

One way to accomplish this is to put everyone in each nation into a biometric ID. Corporations get all of the 3rd world labor they want anywhere they want it and terrorists have trouble at the Mexican border instead of the US border because they are not in the system.

Thats why a lot of people that are fighting CAFTA and the FTAA are breaking from the immigration reform coalitions over Real ID.

W

President Meets with President Fox and Prime Minister Martin

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 323-5.html

Bush: "We've got a lot of trade with each other and we intend to keep it that way. We've got a lot of crossings of the border, I intend to make our borders more secure and facilitate legal traffic."

"And I appreciate the commitment of the Prime Minister and the President toward a spirit of partnership to outlast whatever politics may occur; that puts in place a firm commitment to markets and democracy and freedom and trade and mutual prosperity and mutual security. "

Fox: "Today, we have met to hold a very important encounter that has to do with the future of our nations. In the last decade, trade between our countries, the flows of investment of the creation of jobs have held a good pace. And these efforts have been successful thanks to NAFTA, this bilateral cooperation, this trilateral cooperation has now become strengthened and it has expanded. But, above all, we are making progress on a daily basis toward greater understanding, toward greater knowledge and greater cooperation between our three governments and our three countries."


"Through the Partnership for Security and Prosperity and the quality of life of North America, today we begin a new phase. We are in a world that is constantly changing and that demands that we meet the new challenges and opportunities. We also face new threats that carry a risk for our societies. But we also want to work toward the good performance of our economies. This is why my government is working toward a true coordination with our partners in North America. We are seeking an objective balance between the concerns that have to do with security and those that have to do with having a good and agile flow of goods and people across the borders."

Martin: "In terms of security, we understand that protecting our borders is a crucial checkpoint on the road to our collective prosperity. Our safe borders secure our people not only against terrorism, but they make possible a speedy flow of goods, services and people and information among our three nations. "

"And standing on the shoulders of the Smart Borders Initiative, we are making new investments in security and in defense spending. Quite simply, Canada is a full and forceful partner in building a secure North America. We have -- we have agreed (WG NOTE... we need to find out about Smart Borders Initiative) -- and I've got a long list here, Mr. President, which I'm going to forego, basically a long list of items that we have agreed that we will task our ministers to accomplish, and then we will hold them to account, as we will be held to account by our people. "


Need more info on Smart Borders Initiative folks. they discussed it but they did not give the details and the conf.

I do understand, pal! I will never dog a person for putting up a debate! But to me, the concerns cited aren't very convincing. Having a stable method of ID is the first step, the crucial first step, in asserting ORDER in regards to immigration.

Now the next question is, how can this ID be used by the NAFTA bunch to further dissolve borders so they can get rich while destroying this culture? Well, we already have our immigration laws and we need to DEMAND that our PAID representation enforces them.

One of the reasons I love Terry Anderson is that he refuses to get side-tracked by secondary issues. If we allow this nation to descend into chaos, all the gun control arguments and abortion rights debates and religious freedom issues blah blah blah won't matter a bit. We will all lose.

William, I'll try to explain.
Yes, of course, it would be a major inconvenience and would be the biggest imposure, of the highest kind, to subject Americans to what some people may find to be a total invasion of their privacy, and it is. A long time ago, it would be considered an outrageous form of Government Control. But our government needs to get a grip on who is here, and anyone that doesn't belong here, in order to boot them out. Nothing else is working. It can only help to try every means we can.

Why does the govt NEED to have this power? Because they have failed the American people. They need to make it up to us and to find a way that will protect every living man, woman and child in America. And to get rid of other foreign powers that have no right to be here, only to harm us.
Yes- If Knowledge ='s power then does info = power? Would total info = total power?
I guess.

It's late W. I hope I made sense. I'm too sleepy to be logical.

" International migration and information technology are not only increasingly recognized as two prominent features of globalization, they are becoming increasingly interrelated. Revolutionary changes in information technology drive the economic globalization that is undermining state sovereignty"

Rey Koslowski
Rutgers University-Newark

Prepared for presentation at the Institute for Government Studies
University of California, Berkeley
April 25, 2002

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What Im saying is why do we need biometrics to control illegal immigration when we controlled it for decades without biometrics?

Why are we allowing the illegal immigration debate to be confronted with this issue?

I personally dont see how putting every law abiding legal American into a biometric database will help us fight illegal immigration especially if the Government then legalizes more illegals so they can have the id too.

W

PS: Bbean, if we keep giving the government more money and power everytime they fail us then soon we will have very little money and power and they will have it all. Perhaps that is the case already.

I don't see much of a difference between FRT's and fingerprints. Most of us have been fingerprinted at one time or another. I can't remember, but I thought I did a LiveScan thumbprint at the California DMV.

They know more about us than we care to know. Those magnetic strips on your license and credit cards have three rows of information. We are being tracked whether we like it or not.

Go to go, my tinfoil is coming apart.

Well at least with finger prints you know you are being scanned. With FRT we won't even know when we have been ID'd.

I thought American's were always wary of the concept of Big Brother. I think it was called the Orwellian nightmare. Did we not criticize the Soviets for spying on their own people too much?

What is conservative about FRT? What does it conserve? What part of American culture and freedom does setting up an expanding network of cameras that track Americans represent? Why will the government need to know the location of our own citizens?

Didn't several states secure their licenses without FRT?

Here in NC they have set up the system but it is not rejecting illegal aliens. They are putting illegal aliens into the system. The designers of the system apparently dont give a rats butt if you are in the country legally or not.

I'd like some folks here to tell me how you will feel if we get both the Real ID act and a Guest worker program?

One thing is certain, this bill causes division in the immigration reform ranks. I do not want illegal aliens to have licenses but at the same time we must protect the things that have made America a great nation. I want to stay focused on the things that 70+% of the public agrees with us on. That is our strength.

Why not have a bill that simply reads. Each state must assure that drivers licenses are issued only to those legally present in the US. We have the SAVE program for state agencies to use. Why put every law abiding legal American into a facial recognition biometric system?

I'm worried about this bill. I'm worried that our movement is not unified behind it. I'm worried about the future ramifications of this technology. Although the bill is upsetting immigrant rights groups at the moment, setting up a multinational biometric ID might be in the framework of the trade deals the OBLs that are responsible for a large part of our illegal immigration want. I'm worried that we have not had a national debate of FRT and I feel that is because each time it was leaked they were using it the technology was withdrawn before 9/11.

This bill worries me.

W