Thread: A voice of reason on immigration

Originally Posted by hak51

CountFloyd

You ask for examples how increased immigration created more jobs for natives. With a little messy situation here it is hard to sort out a clean cut case.

However, Ireland can be a good example.

In 2004, Ireland with a population of 4 million opened its borders to immigrants from the new members of the European Union. Within the first 18 months (data by the end of 2005) about 160,000 guest workers found employment in Ireland. It is about 4% of the total population of Ireland. (For comparison, 4% of the U.S. population is about 12,000,000.) Those foreign workers helped the Irish economy to grow, and as a result, unemployment in Ireland slightly decreased. Simply, new workers filled the jobs that Irish did not want to take, but the same their work increased the productivity of the whole economy, creating new job openings that Irish gladly took. Poles, Romanian, Slovaks and others got richer, so did the Irish, and all the governments involved spent less on unemployment. In addition, some funds saved by immigrants will be reinvested in their mother countries, creating new jobs there. With the outflow of qualified workers, those who stayed behind in poorer countries are getting better pay, as Poland, Romania Slovakia and others need to keep some plumbers as well. Everybody benefits when the magic forces of the free market are left alone.

If it worked over there why it would not work here? Especially, that in reality with some limitations it works, despite that Congress made it illegal.

Actually, you are poorly informed. The situation in Ireland has nothing to do with the situation here, because the Irish were experiencing an unexpected boom in their economy that resulted in switching to a flat corporate tax. I know this for a fact because I have clients in Ireland and have followed the effect of the change in tax policy closely.

Any other red herring you'd like to throw at the argument?

Originally Posted by hak51

dxd

Like many politicians, you want to resolve the problem of illegal immigrants and illegal border crossing first, and then fix the currently not functioning legal immigration system. It is like pumping water from a sinking boat first, and fixing the hole in the bottom of the boat later.

In my approach, before we would decide what to do with illegal aliens, we would need to know how we want to handle legal immigration in the future. Therefore, for the sake of discussion, we need to put the current immigration mess aside, and agree on a system of legal immigration that is good for the country, and that would not cause us such havoc again. Knowing where we are heading, we can go back to the currently illegal immigrants and decide if and how some of them might be allowed to legalize their status.

Reading your postings, I suspect that only what you represent is hate against illegal immigrants and you have no clue how to deal with legal immigration. Let me remind you one more time, this site is called Americans for Legal Immigration. Is it anything you can contribute to this community on this subject?

Man, your logic sucks!

CLOSING THE BORDER is analogous to fixing the hole, nitwit. We close the border just as we would fix a hole, but we deport illegals throughout the process just as we would continue to bail water while patching the hole. I hope for your sake that you never get a leak in your boat, because you'd drown while you regaled yourself with your own imagined wisdom!

Where were you educated? Were you educated?

Originally Posted by hak51

CountFloyd

Economic mechanisms work the same everywhere.

Your asking for USA example would lead to bias choices and bias opinions we have different interpretation of the facts that are taking place here right now.

For example Mayor Bloomberg of New York believes that thanks to immigrants the economy of this city is doing much better than it would without them.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060705/ap_ ... n_hearings

I know that the Mayor Daley of Chicago believes the same. He gave strict orders to the Chicago police not to inquire about immigration status during the routine police stops. In his opinion, this might encourage illegal immigrants moving out of town, harming the vibrant economy there. Actually, Chicago looks like at its peak of economic prosperity now.

Mayors of major cities are beholden to the Chambers of Commerce. What is good for the members of the C of C is not necessarily good for the citizenry, but then I'm sure that you knew that before you trotted out your nonsense.

I'm still waiting for the Hack to answer even a single one of my dismantlings of his flawed "logic". My guess is that he has had to report back to the hive to get more pithy comebacks.

barth49

You did not work hard on your response.

Even in communities with dominant presence of foreigners, English is still the language of the nation. Therefore, if foreign workers are reluctant in learning English their chances to get jobs better then the entry level, are limited. Consequently, a local man, has a better chance to find a job in the factory having hundreds of unskilled workers, or in the town where this factory is located, than in case if this factory is relocated to, let us say, Mexico.

About twenty years ago, I visited a factory employing about 300 workers. On the production lines, all signs were posted in English, Polish, and Spanish. The factory owner, form tapes played in the car on his way back and from work, taught himself basics of both Polish and Spanish. As he told me, by being able to have basic communication in those two languages, he was able to make more money.

Originally Posted by hak51

barth49

You did not work hard on your response.

Even in communities with dominant presence of foreigners, English is still the language of the nation. Therefore, if foreign workers are reluctant in learning English their chances to get jobs better then the entry level, are limited. Consequently, a local man, has a better chance to find a job in the factory having hundreds of unskilled workers, or in the town where this factory is located, than in case if this factory is relocated to, let us say, Mexico.

About twenty years ago, I visited a factory employing about 300 workers. On the production lines, all signs were posted in English, Polish, and Spanish. The factory owner, form tapes played in the car on his way back and from work, taught himself basics of both Polish and Spanish. As he told me, by being able to have basic communication in those two languages, he was able to make more money.

But Hack, even now there are communities in which the Hispanic population is so large that they have attempted to make Spanish the official language of the city. One town in Southern California has even decided to fly the Mexican flag. You appear to completely overlook the issue of Balkanization, or at least to pretend that it does not exist.

My take on you is that you are not here to seek any solutions whatsoever. An intelligent person could not so thoroughly divorce himself from logic, and an educated person could not possibly be so uninformed on as many issues as you pretend to be. Your feigned ignorance of all the facts and reason that discredit your "solutions" has the smell of an amateurish propagandist, not an innocently uninformed idealist.

BTW - When are you going to get around to those promised responses?

LMAO!!!

CrocketsGhost

You say:

there is a sertain standard device to my industry that typically wholesales in the range of $200-$300 when made over here. On my last trip to China, one of the manufacturers over there was dumping them for $60. That's more than parts alone cost here. Cheap labor is not going to solve that problem unless the illegals start working for bowls of rice and living under their work stations.

I guess, you need that piece here not there. I suspect that that piece made here, is still better quality. If you need to place an order on a short notice, it is likely easier to work with a local supplier, than with the one in China. All these factors mean extra cost attached to the “cheap” Chinese product. By the time, you are ready to sell it, this Chinese piece may actually cost you more than if made here.

However, if the Chinese product is still much cheaper, it does not make sense to manufacture it here.

I know a factory making screws. They were loosing to competitors selling Chinese product. They looked into situation, and they decided to discontinue manufacturing basic types of screws. They import them from China. In their factory in the U.S., they focus on specialty screws. In the result, they get more customers, as they have wider offer.

If some one is not capable to adjust to ever changing market, he or she should not be in business.

If someone does not understand that the world around is always changing, he or she should not to speak up on issues like immigration for example.

Originally Posted by hak51

CrocketsGhost

You say:

there is a sertain standard device to my industry that typically wholesales in the range of $200-$300 when made over here. On my last trip to China, one of the manufacturers over there was dumping them for $60. That's more than parts alone cost here. Cheap labor is not going to solve that problem unless the illegals start working for bowls of rice and living under their work stations.

I guess, you need that piece here not there. I suspect that that piece made here, is still better quality. If you need to place an order on a short notice, it is likely easier to work with a local supplier, than with the one in China. All these factors mean extra cost attached to the “cheap” Chinese product. By the time, you are ready to sell it, this Chinese piece may actually cost you more than if made here.

However, if the Chinese product is still much cheaper, it does not make sense to manufacture it here.

I know a factory making screws. They were loosing to competitors selling Chinese product. They looked into situation, and they decided to discontinue manufacturing basic types of screws. They import them from China. In their factory in the U.S., they focus on specialty screws. In the result, they get more customers, as they have wider offer.

If some one is not capable to adjust to ever changing market, he or she should not be in business.

If someone does not understand that the world around is always changing, he or she should not to speak up on issues like immigration for example.

Ah, I see... You can't debate my points here so you cut and paste a response to a comment from another thread. That's called cross-posting, and it's considered a no-no and a dirty trick on most websites.

I answered your ludicrous response in the other thread, so go read it there, where it can be viewed in proper context (which was as a rebuttal to your silly claim that making illegals legal and increasing immigration will help our factories compete with China). The reason that cross-posting is considered a serious breach of discussion board etiquette is that it requires a person to answer the same question in multiple threads. I know of no reputable poster who employs this cheap tactic.

Now, how about you take on my challenges to you in THIS THREAD, propagandist?

CrocketsGhost

You say:

Human behavior is scarcely subject to the laws of Physics, and make no mistake: immigration is about human behavior. Relegating human behavior to the physical laws like the mindless tides is demeaning to humanity to the point of being dehumanizing. Most of the greatest tyrants and villains have been utopian reductionists whose mad schemes were predicated on the attempt to neatly package the human condition

You are simply wrong. In our individual decisions we are intelligent creatures with very complex, and sometime hard to understand motivations. However, when we look at our behavior from the statistical point, we are motivated by economic interest, and emotions. Free economic activity can be related to the law of communicating vessels. Emotions can be related to inertia.

You are right that tyrants (communist the most known) used the scientific understanding of human behavior to justify atrocities. Their logic, for example in the case of agriculture in Ukraine in 1930ties was that large farms are more efficient than small ones. So communists took a land from small peasants and created large government run farms. Those who opposed were killed, or if they had good luck, were sent to Siberia. Government run farm were not efficient. In the result, a few million people died of starvation.

If at that Ukraine situation, we applied your logic that you use to deal with our immigration here and now, you would try to use the government to preserve the existing situation, and you would create laws prohibiting concentration of land.

The truth is that in general, large farms are more productive than small ones. However, it should be no government business to interfere with the process of transformation. The free market should manage it.

The same with immigration, free market, not government should decide how much of it we should have.

Lets also not forget where some of that Red Chinese profit is going, New and more Accurate Mirvs(Nucs), Tanks, Jet fighters, SSBN's, Frigates, Cruisers, and even a few Aircraft Carriers are in the works. Their also working on Amphibious capabilities for their impending invasion of Taiwan, all courtesy of the American consumer and don't give me that crap that their not a threat