Thread: A voice of reason on immigration

CrocketsGhost

Actually, you are poorly informed. The situation in Ireland has nothing to do with the situation here, because the Irish were experiencing an unexpected boom in their economy that resulted in switching to a flat corporate tax. I know this for a fact because I have clients in Ireland and have followed the effect of the change in tax policy closely

You mix results with causes. About thirty years ago, Ireland took a steady pro free market approach to the economy. Flat corporate tax was the result of this policy. So was the increased immigration in recent years.

PS. Following both treads, it appears I posted some answers in inappropriate place. I am sorry.

Originally Posted by hak51

CrocketsGhost

You say:

Human behavior is scarcely subject to the laws of Physics, and make no mistake: immigration is about human behavior. Relegating human behavior to the physical laws like the mindless tides is demeaning to humanity to the point of being dehumanizing. Most of the greatest tyrants and villains have been utopian reductionists whose mad schemes were predicated on the attempt to neatly package the human condition

You are simply wrong. In our individual decisions we are intelligent creatures with very complex, and sometime hard to understand motivations. However, when we look at our behavior from the statistical point, we are motivated by economic interest, and emotions. Free economic activity can be related to the law of communicating vessels. Emotions can be related to inertia.

That is, again, ludicrous. Actual monetary supply has had a modified set of hydrodynamic equations attached to it, but even when limited to the narrow portion of economics encompassing monetry supply, these equations have proven to be a decent guide at best. If economics responded to the laws of Physics, there would be plenty of physicists becoming billionaires rather than making upper middle class wages as slaves to government research.

The idea that emotions can be explained via laws of inertia is laughable!

Originally Posted by hak51

You are right that tyrants (communist the most known) used the scientific understanding of human behavior to justify atrocities. Their logic, for example in the case of agriculture in Ukraine in 1930ties was that large farms are more efficient than small ones. So communists took a land from small peasants and created large government run farms. Those who opposed were killed, or if they had good luck, were sent to Siberia. Government run farm were not efficient. In the result, a few million people died of starvation.

If at that Ukraine situation, we applied your logic that you use to deal with our immigration here and now, you would try to use the government to preserve the existing situation, and you would create laws prohibiting concentration of land.

Wrong and wrong. Socialist experiments such as that one in the Ukraine failed because the reductionist laws applied did not take into account the full range of possibile consequences. It's the same error you repeatedly make.

As for claiming that I would, "try to use the government to preserve the existing situation, and you would create laws prohibiting concentration of land," that's a complete non-sequitur. By what torure of logic did you arrive at that untenable conclusion?

Originally Posted by hak51

The truth is that in general, large farms are more productive than small ones. However, it should be no government business to interfere with the process of transformation. The free market should manage it.

The same with immigration, free market, not government should decide how much of it we should have.

No, the truth is that, in general, generalizations have no place in a scholarly discussion. Furthermore, your little rant on the "free market" is really a thinly disguised socialist slant in the Mussolini mold, because you speak of a "free market" while ignoring the political will of a free people. This nation is not a commodity that is up for grabs, regardless of what you internationalists think. It is the home of the American People, and it is we who should and WILL determine how our own nation is run and who we need here or will allow in here.

Originally Posted by hak51

CrocketsGhost

Actually, you are poorly informed. The situation in Ireland has nothing to do with the situation here, because the Irish were experiencing an unexpected boom in their economy that resulted in switching to a flat corporate tax. I know this for a fact because I have clients in Ireland and have followed the effect of the change in tax policy closely

You mix results with causes. About thirty years ago, Ireland took a steady pro free market approach to the economy. Flat corporate tax was the result of this policy. So was the increased immigration in recent years.

PS. Following both treads, it appears I posted some answers in inappropriate place. I am sorry.

That is some creative history there, my odd little friend.

The truth is that Ireland's recent runaway success was the result of a combination of spending cuts and flat taxes over just the last six years. The boom occurred rather recently, following the spending cuts. For example, an American study of US corporations’ overseas profits in 2002, ranks Ireland in first place with a total of $26.8 billion compared with $13.4 billion in 1999.

Here's an article that describes the flaw in attributing the boom to a growth in the labor market, if you're interested:

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandeconomy/ ... ctiger.htm

CrocketsGhost

In case of Ireland, one more time you interpret results as causes. For the last thirty years, they have firm pro business, free market economic policy.

You are right, the results become visible within the last few years. Just a reminder, Ireland practically has no natural resources, and was always one of the poorest countries in Europe. It took them about thirty years of a free market economy to build the wealthy nation.

The question is, how many years of limiting free market will be needed to turn this wealthy nation into a poor one?

Originally Posted by hak51

CrocketsGhost

In case of Ireland, one more time you interpret results as causes. For the last thirty years, they have firm pro business, free market economic policy.

You are right, the results become visible within the last few years. Just a reminder, Ireland practically has no natural resources, and was always one of the poorest countries in Europe. It took them about thirty years of a free market economy to build the wealthy nation.

The question is, how many years of limiting free market will be needed to turn this wealthy nation into a poor one?

You're just dancing now, my gaseous little friend. The fact is that Ireland's economy was the laughingstock of Europe until less than a decade ago. The improvements PRECISELY coincided with the government finally figuring out what American Conservatives have know forever, which is that cutting spending and making taxes lower, flatter and more equitable boosts an economy like nothing else. I am not confusing results and causes. I am correctly identifying cause and effect. To claim that the sudden and drastic turnaround was some simmering event just looking for some magical alignment of the stars to occur is tomfoolery, particularly when quite specific and (for Ireland) radical changes were made to the government's expenditure and tax policies immediately prior to the boom.

What you are trying to sell here is akin to telling a number of witnesses to a tanker explosion that the big *BANG* that they heard was not related to the explosion, but rather was an event that had been building for decades. What's next? Are you going to try telling some of the posters here that you represent a Nigerian banker who needs their account number to get his millions out of the country and are willing to share 10% of the total for their trouble?

You're becoming more of a joke the longer you go on, because you don't know when to quit. When you first posted, you even had a few posters snookered into believing that you were an intelligent individual. The longer you try to defend your bloviations, the more of a hack you reveal yourself to be.

CrocketsGhost

Let me enter my quick comments between your lines.

You're just dancing now, my gaseous little friend. (Why do you keep trying to offend me? Lack of reasonable arguments?) The fact is that Ireland's economy was the laughingstock of Europe until less than a decade ago. (As most of the countries in Western Europe after the WWII they had Keynes style, capitalism with a socialistic government. Plus, they simply were damn poor) The improvements (started with pro business, free market policies implemented in 1970ties) PRECISELY coincided with the government finally figuring out what American Conservatives (Who do you have in mind Milton Friedman or Pat Buchanan?) have know forever, which is that cutting spending and making taxes lower, flatter and more equitable boosts an economy like nothing else. I am not confusing results and causes. (You do; you simply do not know facts) I am correctly identifying cause and effect. (You just claim so, but you are wrong.) To claim that the sudden and drastic turnaround was some simmering event just looking for some magical alignment of the stars (There was no magic, Irish decided that the free market economy is the right way out of poverty) to occur is tomfoolery, (Why do you keep trying to offend me? Lack of reasonable arguments?) particularly when quite specific and (for Ireland) radical changes were made to the government's expenditure and tax policies immediately prior to the boom.

You're becoming more of a joke (Why do you keep trying to offend me? Lack of reasonable arguments?) the longer you go on, because you don't know when to quit. When you first posted, you even had a few posters snookered into believing that you were an intelligent individual. (With this comment, you enter a shaky ground, as when judging my intelligence you unavoidably compare it to yours. I observed so far that you have firm opinion that are not based on facts, like that Ireland case for example. Furthermore, to my surprise it looks like that despite living in the country build on the free market you simply have a big gape in the education on this subject. Does it mean that you are not intelligent? I would be afraid to come with such conclusion.) The longer you try to defend your bloviations, the more of a hack (Why do you keep trying to offend me? Lack of reasonable arguments?) you reveal yourself to be.

HACK wrote:
several times

(Why do you keep trying to offend me? Lack of reasonable arguments?)

It is YOU that has offended many Alipac members. You had better go back and read your own foolish posts.

I might add that you have come very close to getting drop kicked out the door for offending our members. However, weighing the pros and cons, the laughter you've provided tipped the scale.........FOR THE TIME BEING.

You're a comical diversion and also very valuable proof of the PRO ILLEGAL flawed thought process. We appreciate every single moronic post that you've willingly typed.

Originally Posted by 2ndamendsis

HACK wrote:
several times

(Why do you keep trying to offend me? Lack of reasonable arguments?)

It is YOU that has offended many Alipac members. You had better go back and read your own foolish posts.

I might add that you have come very close to getting drop kicked out the door for offending our members. However, weighing the pros and cons, the laughter you've provided tipped the scale.........FOR THE TIME BEING.

You're a comical diversion and also very valuable proof of the PRO ILLEGAL flawed thought process. We appreciate every single moronic post that you've willingly typed.

Now, how 2ndamendsis, just as I told Sippy on another post - play nice with the little boy whose Mom must have given him the wrong kind of Kool Aid. (Now, that wasn't nice of me, was it?)

If we got rid of him, what would we do for entertainment - besides think of all popcorn, milk duds, etc. that everyone had been bringing.

Originally Posted by CheyenneWoman

Originally Posted by 2ndamendsis

HACK wrote:
several times

(Why do you keep trying to offend me? Lack of reasonable arguments?)

It is YOU that has offended many Alipac members. You had better go back and read your own foolish posts.

I might add that you have come very close to getting drop kicked out the door for offending our members. However, weighing the pros and cons, the laughter you've provided tipped the scale.........FOR THE TIME BEING.

You're a comical diversion and also very valuable proof of the PRO ILLEGAL flawed thought process. We appreciate every single moronic post that you've willingly typed.

Now, how 2ndamendsis, just as I told Sippy on another post - play nice with the little boy whose Mom must have given him the wrong kind of Kool Aid. (Now, that wasn't nice of me, was it?)

If we got rid of him, what would we do for entertainment - besides think of all popcorn, milk duds, etc. that everyone had been bringing.

CHEYENNE
LOL.......first of all, he's been allowed to stay primarily because the treats have been so delicious! Damn but we'll gain weight if he stays much longer And I want some of YOUR fry bread that Sip keeps raving about!!

Secondly, I'll only play nice with those who've earned respect and this yahoo has been exceptionally rude to our members with nary an apology. Guess I'm just like a lion protecting her cubs, lol.

Originally Posted by hak51

CrocketsGhost

Let me enter my quick comments between your lines.

You're just dancing now, my gaseous little friend. (Why do you keep trying to offend me? Lack of reasonable arguments?) The fact is that Ireland's economy was the laughingstock of Europe until less than a decade ago. (As most of the countries in Western Europe after the WWII they had Keynes style, capitalism with a socialistic government. Plus, they simply were damn poor) The improvements (started with pro business, free market policies implemented in 1970ties) PRECISELY coincided with the government finally figuring out what American Conservatives (Who do you have in mind Milton Friedman or Pat Buchanan?) have know forever, which is that cutting spending and making taxes lower, flatter and more equitable boosts an economy like nothing else. I am not confusing results and causes. (You do; you simply do not know facts) I am correctly identifying cause and effect. (You just claim so, but you are wrong.) To claim that the sudden and drastic turnaround was some simmering event just looking for some magical alignment of the stars (There was no magic, Irish decided that the free market economy is the right way out of poverty) to occur is tomfoolery, (Why do you keep trying to offend me? Lack of reasonable arguments?) particularly when quite specific and (for Ireland) radical changes were made to the government's expenditure and tax policies immediately prior to the boom.

You're becoming more of a joke (Why do you keep trying to offend me? Lack of reasonable arguments?) the longer you go on, because you don't know when to quit. When you first posted, you even had a few posters snookered into believing that you were an intelligent individual. (With this comment, you enter a shaky ground, as when judging my intelligence you unavoidably compare it to yours. I observed so far that you have firm opinion that are not based on facts, like that Ireland case for example. Furthermore, to my surprise it looks like that despite living in the country build on the free market you simply have a big gape in the education on this subject. Does it mean that you are not intelligent? I would be afraid to come with such conclusion.) The longer you try to defend your bloviations, the more of a hack (Why do you keep trying to offend me? Lack of reasonable arguments?) you reveal yourself to be.

Little fella, please try to keep your wits about you and remember what we are discussing rather than erecting all these straw men.

Your premise was that the recent decision to allow an influx of immigrants was behind Ireland's economic success. I CORRECTLY pointed out that Ireland's recent economi c success was rooted in fiscal and tax policy.

You then switched gears to suddenly claim that Ireland's success was the result of decades of steady progress, which is patently and demonstrably false, besides being absolutely contrary to your original claim that immigration was the impetus for Ireland's boom.

So what is it? Did Ireland's economy just boom because oif very recent immigration policy, as you originally stated, or was it the result of decades of steady progress, as you now claim? Or am I (and any number of economic experts such as the one whose article I linked) correct that more recent taxation policy and fiscal restraint had fuelled the boom? Well?

BTW - Since the increase in immigration, resumption of higher spending levels, and incread taxation over the last couple of years, Ireland's boom is now being officially declared dead. So it would appear that the immigration policy you touted as a success either played a role in the downturn or at least did nothing to stop it. I'd say that your argument is a bust.

As for credible arguments or lack thereof, I believe that any other participant in this discussion can plainly see who has sound arguments and who is all over the map trying to cover his little arse. Shall we start pulling facts and figures or charts showing when the boom occurred and what policies bracketed the boom and its recent bust? Do you want to go first or shall I, or would you like to concede before I make you look even more foolish?