Thread: A voice of reason on immigration

hak51, keep up the good work in trying to get all angles of this story covered. I know its hard to debate when it is all vs you.

Originally Posted by chicano

hak51, keep up the good work in trying to get all angles of this story covered. I know its hard to debate when it is all vs you.

the poor guy's having a rough time expousing his communist ideas to Americans who love the Constitution of the United States. He's working hard but, hey

Is he on the LaRaza payroll? We're still interested in knowing what country HAK emigrated from, however, he's beein avoiding that question.

He's trying but there's just no contest between HAK and old Ben Franklin or Tom Jefferson...John Adams and the gang. My fave is Georgie Washington, though. He loved the law, peace, a good horse, America and most of all, his courage to fight for his nation when necessary was unbounding and his determination in the face of defeat saw no end with an ability to turn defeat into victory. What a guy!

Originally Posted by chicano

hak51, keep up the good work in trying to get all angles of this story covered. I know its hard to debate when it is all vs you.

No, it's hard to debate when you don't respond to the people you're "debating".

Originally Posted by CountFloyd

Originally Posted by chicano

hak51, keep up the good work in trying to get all angles of this story covered. I know its hard to debate when it is all vs you.

No, it's hard to debate when you don't respond to the people you're "debating".

Welllll, that too, COUNT

hak51, keep up the good work in trying to get all angles of this story covered. I know its hard to debate when it is all vs you.

Yeah, it is hard to debate when it's the Constitution vs you.

hak51,
You seem like an intelligent person, but I believe you only see this issue as an outsider looking in. I find that the people who are most pro open borders or pro illegal immigration are the people who benefit from it or at least aren't hurt buy it.

With that said, I have been living this nightmare, and I don't use the word nightmare loosely.

Personally as a carpenter for the past twenty years, I'm sick of it! I live in New Jersey, no where near the border of Mexico. The community I live in, I've lived in pretty much all my life. In the last five years the community has changed, not for the better. Now every morning at the local convenience store, no less than one hundred illegal aliens gather outside waiting for work. The one's who don't find work spend the day walking the streets of town and loitering in front of businesses.

Crime has risen in my town, which is understandable. If people are going to sneak across the borders like thieves in the night. Steal American citizens identifications, forge documents, evade taxes, drive without a valid drivers license, registration and/or insurance, break zoning and fire code laws by living to many to a house and lie about their status in this country. How can they be expected to obey any other laws. The funny thing is these are the good one's. I didn't mention the illegals who have come here who have murdered, raped, molested, robbed and sold drugs to American citizens and their children.

Illegal immigration has not only effected my town but my business as well. As a framing contractor it's been devastating to watch people who spent their whole lives in a business be driven out by illegal aliens. All this talk " their doing the jobs American's won't do" is b*llsh*t. Wages have adjusted themselves to what the illegal aliens are willing to work for. So if an American carpenter who was used to being paid $16 to $20 dollars an hour isn't willing to work for $8 to $10 he's sh*t out of luck.

Hak51 you can read all the books about illegal immigration, quote all the stats and write all the hypothesis you want, but that's all they are hypothesis. What I wrote above are facts.

I'll tell you one thing all those people who are getting rich from illegal immigration, better take some of that money and use it towards their personal security. Because their's going to be alot of angry and desperate Americans. And unlike the illegal aliens, they were'nt born into poverty, they have been put their by no fault of their own, but by unscrupulous business owners and politicians.

R.I.P. Jordin Paulder 11/22/96-06/05/06

R.I.P. Jordin Paulder 11/22/96-06/05/06

samhouston - RIP Indeed! An atrocity that received virtually no national attention. Where was the outrage?

samhouston, I don't disagree with you ,I'm just wondering, Why does Hak51 sound like an intelligent person

Originally Posted by hak51

Please visit my web side and read my essays on immigration. The first one, http://www.alipac.us "Migration to the future" is more general. The second one, http://www.alipac.us “Neither immigration nor reform”, is more a polemic with the currently proposed HR.4437 and S.2611. The front immigration page http://www.alipac.us is just an outline, with multiple links to the corresponding arguments within the two reports. I can proudly say that my reports on immigration are more complex, comprehensive and logically coherent than any report produced by reputable think tanks like for example the Heritage Foundation, Cato Institute, Heartland Institute, Brooklyn Foundation, or even all of them combined. I will give $100, to anyone who would point me to the report that is at least as complex, comprehensive, and logically coherent as mine. I will raise my award to $200 if someone would point me to the report that is logically coherent when supporting building the wall and limited immigration.

I'd say that you need to curb your enthusiasm over your own intellect. It's not terribly impressive, and I'll provide a couple of out-takes to corroborate that position:

First off, you attempt to use the laws of Physics to explain immigration.

...Most countries of the world outside of the USA have populations of higher density than here. Most of these countries have much lower standards of living than here. From the basic laws of physics, we know that different potentials create a movement of medium. Some who do not like the laws of physics would build barriers, bureaucratic or actual concrete walls, to stop the flow – in this case – of people. Those artificial barriers earlier or later will fall, usually when least expected, and cause damage.

Human behavior is scarcely subject to the laws of Physics, and make no mistake: immigration is about human behavior. Relegating human behavior to the physical laws like the mindless tides is demeaning to humanity to the point of being dehumanizing. Most of the greatest tyrants and villains have been utopian reductionists whose mad schemes were predicated on the attempt to neatly package the human condition.

Next, you minimize or indeed cast aside the role of the early Americans themselves in making this nation what it is by ascribing the creation of this system to "pure luck.".

America is home to people who are fortunate to be born here. America also represents the concept of a political system built on the respect of individual’s rights. It is the pure luck of today’s Americans that about two hundred thirty years ago – by the random coincidence of numerous circumstances – the great democratic system was created right here rather than in South America, for example. It is also not the fault of people born there that the political systems in their countries are flawed, corrupted, or sometimes plainly criminal.

Quite to the contrary, there was little luck involved. The Europeans who came here and founded this nation were largely well-educated and morally upright individuals whose families had endured the inequities of the feudal system and fought monarchs and entrenched institutions to earn the right to leave to new lands where they could implement their vision of fair governance. To dismiss this fact is to completely misunderstand the nature of this nation and of the people who founded her. In other words, it is no mere coincidence that the people who forced the Magna Carta on the monarchy and not, say, the Spaniards, were those who created the nation that is the envy of the world.

Then you engage in straw man arguments that are again reductionist in nature, such as that by which you claim that our immigration laws are "bad."

The law that is not enforced and not obeyed by most concerned parties is a bad law. The current immigration law is bad big time, in the same way that the law of Prohibition was bad because it turned everybody who had a taste for a beer into a criminal . Most illegal immigrants here are illegal not because this is their choice. They stay illegal because we want them to stay but we do not give them a realistic opportunity to legalize their status, and at the same time, intentionally we did not give the government enough power to execute the existing laws. This situation resulted from the compromise between those who believe that government should be in the full control of the immigration process, and those who believe that the free market would do the better job.

Stay illegal? My friend, the CHOICE to come here illegally was a CHOICE that was made by a person who has no regartd for the law. The crime rate among illegals here is further evidence that the issue is not the law in question, but rather the concept of respect for the law in general. What we have is a case of individuals from lawless nations invading the homeland of a people who highly value the rule of law. This is not a matter of bad law, but rather of a clash of cultures. If we cast aside this law because some lawless foreigners choose not to obey it, what laws must we cast aside next?

You see, the Americans LIKE the immigration laws. It is the foreigners who wish to despoil us who do not care for our laws. Why should they? All our laws do is limit the ways in which they may despoil this nation.

Furthermore, your concept that the borders would need to be "sealed" or "walled" is ludicrous and is another example of a falsely limited set of solutions. The best way to discourage the illegal immigrants from their illegal entry is to remove the incentives. We need to cut off the freebies available to non-Americans. We need to severely prosecute those who hire illegals. We need to make voting by non-citizens a felony punishable by mandatory prison time. Accomplish those goals and no wall or seal will be required.

I could continue to dissect your little treatise, but there is little point. The numerous false conclusions and misapplications of reason betray it as the work of a youthful individual who thinks far too highly of his own intellectual abilities. I won't call your work childish, but it is immature. Keep learning and gaining life experience and then try again in about twenty years.

CROCKET
you speak so eloquently while laying out the facts for those that wish to steal the fruits of our labor.

I'll go straight to where the rubber meets the road:
Some of HAK's work is taken from the United Nations of Greed & Genocide's "freedom of migration plan."

The odd thing is that he seemed to believe that he could pass it off as his own work.