Thread: Do you support birthright citizenship?

If they can get them out, they wont have any problems getting them in,


http://www.saintpetersburgtimes.com/200 ... flig.shtml



TAMPA - Two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, with most of the nation's air traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International Airport, picked up three young Saudi men and left.

The men, one of them thought to be a member of the Saudi royal family, were accompanied by a former FBI agent and a former Tampa police officer on the flight to Lexington, Ky.

The Saudis then took another flight out of the country. The two ex-officers returned to TIA a few hours later on the same plane.

For nearly three years, White House, aviation and law enforcement officials have insisted the flight never took place and have denied published reports and widespread Internet speculation about its purpose.

But now, at the request of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks, TIA officials have confirmed that the flight did take place and have supplied details.

The odyssey of the small LearJet 35 is part of a larger controversy over the hasty exodus from the United States in the days immediately after 9/11 of members of the Saudi royal family and relatives of Osama bin Laden.

The terrorism panel, better known as the 9/11 Commission, said in April that it knew of six chartered flights with 142 people aboard, mostly Saudis, that left the United States between Sept. 14 and 24, 2001. But it has said nothing about the Tampa flight.

The commission's general counsel, Daniel Marcus, asked TIA in a letter dated May 25 for any information about "a chartered flight with six people, including a Saudi prince, that flew from Tampa, Florida on or about Sept. 13, 2001." He asked for the information no later than June 8.

TIA officials said they sent their reply on Monday.

The airport used aircraft tracking equipment normally assigned to a noise abatement program to determine the identity of all aircraft entering TIA airspace on Sept. 13, and found four records for the LearJet 35.

The plane first entered the airspace from the south, possibly from the Fort Lauderdale area, sometime after 3 p.m. and landed for the first time at 3:34 p.m. It took off at 4:37 p.m., headed north. It returned to Tampa at 8:23 p.m. and took off again at 8:48 p.m., headed south.

Author Craig Unger, who first disclosed the possibility of a post-9/11 Saudi airlift in his book House of Bush, House of Saud, said in an interview that he believes the jet came to Tampa a second time to drop off two former law enforcement agents from Tampa who accompanied three young Saudis to Lexington for security purposes.

The Saudis asked the Tampa Police Department to escort the flight, but the department handed off the assignment to Dan Grossi, a former member of the force, Unger said. Grossi recruited Manuel Perez, a retired FBI agent, to accompany him. Both described the flight to Unger as somewhat surreal.

"They got the approval somewhere," Perez is quoted as telling Unger. "It must have come from the highest levels of government."

While there is no manifest for those aboard the Lear flight to Kentucky, Unger says the foreign nationals left Lexington for London aboard a Boeing 727. That manifest lists eight Saudis, two Sudan nationals, one Tunisian, one Philippine citizen, one Egyptian and two British subjects.

Of those, three listed residences on Normandy Trace Drive in Tampa, and all of them held Florida drivers' licenses. They are Ahmad Al Hazmi, then 19, Fahad Al Zeid, then 20, and Talal M. Al Mejrad, then 18, all male Saudis.

It is not known which, if any, is a Saudi prince.

Perez, the former FBI agent on the flight, could not be located this week, and Grossi declined to talk about the experience.

"I'm over it," he said in a telephone interview. "The White House, the FAA and the FBI all said the flight didn't happen. Those are three agencies that are way over my head, and that's why I'm done talking about it."

Grossi did say that Unger's account of his participation in the flight is accurate.

The FAA is still not talking about the flights, referring all questions to the FBI, which isn't answering anything, either. Nor is the 9/11 Commission.

Unger's book criticizes the Bush administration for allowing so many Saudis, including the relatives of bin Laden, to leave the country without being questioned thoroughly about the terrorist attacks.

Fifteen of the 19 men who hijacked four airlines on Sept. 11 were Saudi, as is bin Laden.

The 9/11 Commission, which has said the flights out of the United States were handled appropriately by the FBI, appears concerned with the handling of the Tampa flight.

"What information, if any, do you have about the screening by law enforcement personnel - including law enforcement personnel affiliated with the airport facility - of individuals on this flight?" the commission asked TIA.

The TIA Police Department said a check of its records indicated no member of its force screened the Lear's passengers.

Despite evidence that the flight occurred, several new questions have arisen.

Raytheon Aircraft is the only facility at TIA that services general aviation, which includes charter flights. When appropriate, Raytheon collects landing fees from those aircraft for TIA and reports to TIA on the flights.

According to airport records, Raytheon collected landing fees from only two aircraft on Sept. 13, one of them a Lear 35. But according to the record, the registration on the Lear is 505RP, a tail number which, according to the latest federal records, is assigned to a Cessna Citation based in Kalamazoo, Mich., and Oskar Rene Poch.

Poch confirmed Tuesday that he owns a Citation with that tail number and did before the terrorist attacks.

"Somebody must have gotten the registration number wrong in Tampa," he said.

TIA spokeswoman Brenda Geoghagan said it is believed the Lear's Sept. 13 journey began in Fort Lauderdale, possibly at a charter company called Hop-a-Jet Inc. The fact that the four trips in and out of Tampa all carried the flight designation "HPJ32" lends support to that idea.

But an official of Hop-a-Jet who wouldn't identify himself said the company does not own an aircraft with the registration number 505RP. Furthermore, he said, if that tail number is assigned to a Cessna Citation, the company doesn't own any Citations, either.

Most of the aircraft allowed to fly in U.S. airspace on Sept. 13 were empty airliners being ferried from the airports where they made quick landings on Sept. 11. The reopening of the airspace included paid charter flights, but not private, nonrevenue flights.

"Whether such a (LearJet) flight would have been legal hinges on whether somebody paid for it," said FAA spokesman William Shumann. "That's the key."

- Times researcher Kitty Bennett contributed to this report.

I am sick to death of beng lied to by this Government.

Thanks JP for posting this article.

Maybe some day we'll find out who these people were.

It's inhumane to deport people on such a 17 million scale, especially as the government sees anchor babies as citizens. We should be happy when we ever achieve to deport 5 million illegals out of the 17 million and have the Southern border sealed of

There is something you do not understand. Our government in theory anyway represents the will of the people. You know the "We the People" that the US Constitution was written for. "The People" feel these anchor babies are not US Citizens. Thus "the government" is not carrying out the will of the people. If this does not change, it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the people to change the government. By election if possible, or as a last resort under the rights the people have as spelled out in the 2nd and 10th amendments.

WE will only be happy when all illegl aliens are deported. It is not our fault they are here, but it is our responsibility to remove them in accordance with our laws....and that's their offspring as well.

"We are not responsible for the sins of our fathers" in that we are not responsible for the stupidity or ignorance or anti-American agendas that resulted in the "policy" of our predecessors that resulted in US Birth Certificate being issued to people who were brought here illegally in a womb to rip US off or conceived here illegally to rip US off.

And "I am just uananimous on that".

Originally Posted by JuniusJnr

I disagree. I want an EU passport ( any country ) next to my American passport.

And an EU passport is one step closer to globalism. So therefore you are saying you are a globalist? Do you want the entire world to be a third world nation where 5% of the people control 95% of the money? I don't. And that is what globalism will ultimately bring. In my opinion, that is.

there's not such thing as an EU passport yet. each country has it's own passport, but they do all say"in their native language : "European union "
Like the Dutch one of my friends say :

" europese unie "
" koninkrijk der nederlanden "
"paspoort "

all the EU passports has the first line : "europese unie " in their own language as there are about 20 different languages in EU.
If I get a dutch passport or Swedish passport or of another EU country than I can later on live and work in entire US and entire EU. It would only expand my possibilites and I don't see anything wrong with that. i'm against globalism as I agree with you that it will only make the rich richer and the poor poorer but that has something to do with big companies. i'm just a single person who's hindering noone if I also try hard to get an EU - country passport.

Originally Posted by Judy

1. Largest national debt in US History

2. Highest personal debt in US History

3. Lowest personal savings in US History

4. Deflated wages and salaries

5. Rising Poverty

6. Rising Income Gap

7. Rising Number of Uninsured

8. Highest trade deficits in US History

9. Highest immigration in US History

And all this during an "economic boom"!

Until all these economic indicators are reversed, America is bankrupt with more debt than assets and inadequate income to change that fact.

I'm not saying that everything is going perfect in the US, but I just say that we're still a rich country where many people want to go to. and don't know the immigration rate right now, but I think the biggest is still in the 1880's - 1931

quote]Complain about what? And why should we stop complaining that people invade our land and steal from us? Will that make it go away? [/quote]

I hear my US friends complain about the raising gas prices for example, while people here in europe pay much more and hardly complain about it.

Do you actually know any people from Africa? I do. And the ones I know were displaced from their own countries by civil unrest where Islamists and Christians are constantly at war.

i know people from suriname, so they are actually africans too as dutch slave drivers moved them from Africa to suriname. But what i mean with Africa is that many people are starving there and not in US. we as americans complain about luxury problems, we've been too spoiled while the africans complain about first needs !

So are you saying that we should go get all the starving people on earth and bring them here? Or are you saying that we should keep giving aid to let the terrorists steal it before it gets into the hands of the people who need it. I don't understand.

i don't think so, but is letting them die is a better option ?

And, by the way, we are not the richest nation on earth. I'll check and let you know who is but it isn't us. It used to be Kuwait but it probably has shifted to some other oil rich postage stamp sized nation by now.

we're the richest nation on earth, I look at the overall of the US as a country, you look per capita. that's different. i mean Japan, norway, sweden, and many other countries are richer than us per capita. Japanese make more money per person than americans, but overall america is richer as we've more citizens as the Japanese. What I don't understand is why japan as a very rich nation is not accepting immigration or only a few 100 per year. I can even remember they were criticized by the UN for not letting in asylum seekers.

Stop complaining? Really? We've only started complaining and I will continue to complain loud and long until we get results. This government is ignoring its own laws and our constitution. This government, in so doing, is promoting nothing less than anarchy. THIS is a traitorous government and should be impeached.

I meant that we as americans must stop complaining about little thing as raising gas prices and other luxory things. america is being spoiled. our kids spend more time watching tv and playing the newest play station instead of playing sports in the park. and why would the government promore anarchy ? that's not true, anarchy only undermines a government so the government would loose power when there would be anarchy.

I was in Africa, Ethiopia, Asmara township when the ELF started their attempt to depose the dictator Haile Salase ( excuse the spelling) We were smack in the middle of some of the fire fights. I'm most likely the only woman on this forum who has ever been under live machine gun fire from a force hostile to an established government. It wasn't fun.
I was also in Kenya...lovely country...at that time. These are the exact things that will be happening in this nation unless we get good leadership. These are the exact things that the current leadership , by it's very lack of leadership, hopes to bring about. They WANT to be able to declare martial law, you see. That would bring about their hopes and dreams in short order.

there's a nice dutch saying : "overdrijven is ook een kunst"
That refers to the last quoted text.
Like that could happen in the US too. there is war in Africa fue to the lack of food, due to the lack of government but the same is not the case in the US

Originally Posted by butterbean

QUOTE returning_resident:
"I doubt if Mrs Bin Laden will be allowed to enter the country and I also doubt if the child will ever be elected as our president. I believe the child could run for president, but noone is going to vote for him/her.

[b]Who would even know if she was here or not. Homeland Security, ICE, and even Bush, refuse to eliminate illegals properly. They all need to be deported. And YES, it is more than feasible to deport millions of them, and would save our country money. And we are tired of 'dual citizenship', because you cant be loyal to another country if you are truely American.
America is becoming too multi-cultural to the point where Mrs Bin Laden's son, if born here, could very well win the presidency. Its just a matter of time. If you have a half million illegal Muslims who give birth on American soil, the odds get higher all the time. Look at how many Hispanics are representing each other's interests, because they were appointed high government positions. It makes me wonder how many of them were 'Anchor Babies'.

I don't see the problems of dual citizenship. but that's probably'because I want a passport of an EU country too next to my US passport. I think you overreact, BB. A country can be multi cultural, but that doens't make a country stupid. do you really think that americans of asian, hispanic, european, african heritage would be so stupid to vote for a president who's father is Bin Laden himself ? how many muslims live in the US ? Maybe 2% and most of them in Michigan and NYC. Well, I never had problems with muslims in nyc. most of them are loyal US citizens !

Originally Posted by JuniusJnr

It's inhumane to deport people on such a 17 million scale, especially as the government sees anchor babies as citizens. We should be happy when we ever achieve to deport 5 million illegals out of the 17 million and have the Southern border sealed of

It was even more inhumane to let them get established in this country to start with if you ask me! It was inhumane to them because they can't stay here illegally and, more than that, it was inhumane to the American taxpayers who have been supporting their shortfalls.

So I guess you would prefer to just let the USA become a third world nation when we all go broke than to deport people who are here illegally?

I want illegal aliens to be deported. stop saying that I don't want them deported. I just say it's not achievable to deport them all !