Thread: FairTax and Trade

Originally Posted by Judy

Ummmm, Ronald Reagan wasn't talking about 100 different federal taxes. He was talking about every tax in the country, paid by each and every grower, worker, supplier, vendor, manufacturer and seller in the supply chain of producing and selling a loaf of bread.

Yes. And that disproves your assertion that There are very few "embedded" federal taxes outside of federal income tax.: There are countless federal taxes embedded in every consumer article you purchase.

The quote was: “More than half the price of a loaf of bread is made up of 151 taxes that have accumulated between the wheat field and grocer’s shelf.” Are you really going to suggest a major number of those taxes are not federally imposed?

Aside from that, I see you are still unwilling to discuss the consequences connected to the alleged fairtax entitlement called “the family consumption allowance”.

Tell us, Judy, under the alleged fairtax and its family consumption entitlement, how many more “poor working people” would have a vested interest in voting for progressives, socialists and communists during election time who would promise to work to increase the family consumption entitlement? Is this not how Fifth Column members of Congress stay in power in our nation’s poorest voting districts ____ by offering their constituency free government cheese?


Tell us Judy, why are you so eager to create another entitlement, which would help our Fifth Column members in Congress to remain in power by promising our nation’s poor during each election time to alter the fairtax and enlarge the family consumption entitlement?


JWK

If we can make 51 percent of America’s population dependent upon the federal government for its subsistence [the fairtax family consumption allowance check] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ____ Our Fifth Column’s long term strategy ___ a plan to establish a federal plantation that confiscates and then redistributes the bread which labor, business and investors have worked to produce

Originally Posted by jtdc

Well not having been on them, your right , I don't know. But those programs are based on documented income. So you are saying they are strictly on their honor, which is why there is so much fraud. With what you say, I could be pulling down $100k per year, but if I show them a bank account with $100 per month income, I'm in!

While I don't know about John's 100 taxes, I do know there are a few, not so insignificant taxes. Of course part of the costs of employees are the taxes. The employer pays an FICA tax on every employee, in addition to their own personal taxes. All the business taxes, whether state, local, or federal are embedded in the cost of the item. There are transportation taxes when the item is shipped, warehouse taxes, and of course the taxes a retailer has to pay. All these are embedded in the price. Then a sales tax, if any is added, based on that price which is a good part taxes.

Of course that's your argument. But all of those embedded taxes add to the price upone which your FairTax will be based on.

That what you claim!

Some do, but from what I see, the majority only see the sales tax which is listed on their receipt.

Wow! That will be as bad as my utility bill where half the items listed are various taxes added.

You apparent haven't been reading what I write. I have no problem with the sales tax portion. It's the Rebate that I see as a major problem.

No, I don't like the system we have now. But it's not so much the taxing income, it's the pages and pages of special rates, special exemptions and so many complications that make the rules something that even IRS can't interpret. If we had a straight percentage on all income, that would be better, and just about equivalent to the flat sales tax portion of the so-called FairTax. But neither of those methods make any allowance for the poor. And that is the concern of the poor voters.

Now you are just being insulting!

If you like the FairTax as you now claim, then why don't you just say so, and suggest they delete the Rebate and lower the rate or dedicate the savings to paying down this awful national debt? I have no problem at all with either getting rid of the Rebate or keeping it. I'm good with the FairTax with the Rebate if they need it for some legal or constitutional reason to exempt "necessities" or having the Rebate that exempts "necessities". The income tax we have now does the same thing as the Standard Deduction and Personal Deduction and Dependent Deductions as the Rebate, so why you or John or anyone else have their ass in a curl over it, is beyond me, because it's completely silly.

No, the FairTax does not tax sales tax on these new goods and services. The FairTax is inclusive, it's in the price BEFORE state and local sales taxes are charged. Whether they charge their sales taxes on top of the FairTax, I doubt it, but that would be up to them.

Well not having been on them, your right , I don't know. But those programs are based on documented income. So you are saying they are strictly on their honor, which is why there is so much fraud. With what you say, I could be pulling down $100k per year, but if I show them a bank account with $100 per month income, I'm in!

You can be pulling down $100,000 a year and still qualify for a number of welfare programs, low-income housing in Northern Virginia for example, you can be pulling down $89,000 a year with 4 kids and qualify for SCHIP in New York State. God knows what you could be pulling down to qualify for programs in California. I think you and Johnwk have been asleep at your wheels too long.

Originally Posted by Judy

Ummmm, Ronald Reagan wasn't talking about 100 different federal taxes. He was talking about every tax in the country, paid by each and every grower, worker, supplier, vendor, manufacturer and seller in the supply chain of producing and selling a loaf of bread.

Which are "Value Added Taxes"! They are all part of what makes that bread cost so much.

A head of lettuce sitting in a field costs nothing. Generally they grow naturally. But farmers buy the seeds, buy the water to help them grow, buy pesticides and fertilizes to help them grow, buy and maintain the tractors to plow the fields. And there are taxes included in all of those. Then they hire pickers to harvest the lettuce, a trucking company to take it to a warehouse, then more transportation to deliver it to the market. In my state lettuce is exempt from sales tax as a "necessity of life". But every step to get it there has taxes embedded in them.

Originally Posted by Judy

That's why I asked you the question if you knew what the word "compounding" means. The very problem that Reagan was highlighting is the compounding problem of mandated income taxes which the FairTax eliminates on the federal level.

President Reagan was talking about the FairTax?

Originally Posted by Judy

MW, you offend a lot of Republicans with your rude attacks on me and the FairTax. Personally, I don't think that's wise.

Who, other than you, have I offended with my comments regarding the unfair tax? Geez, your position on many issues offend me, but I'm not going to threaten you over them. Right or wrong, you're entitled to your opinion.

I've yet to see anyone come to your defense on the "unfair tax" plan you keep hyping. So, please forgive me for not feeling the hate you say I'm getting because of my opposition to the a tax plan that would cause serious damage to the middle class! Personally, I think your just spinning your wheels here with constant advertising for a plan that will never receive the traction you would like. The plan has been around for almost two decades and has never been out of committee.

Originally Posted by jtdc

Welcome to the club, MW. She told me that I offend a lot of people here as well.

Yep, some folks are just always right and anyone that opposes their position is wrong. Wish I was someone that was always right.

Originally Posted by johnwk

Yes. And that disproves your assertion that There are very few "embedded" federal taxes outside of federal income tax.: There are countless federal taxes embedded in every consumer article you purchase.

The quote was: “More than half the price of a loaf of bread is made up of 151 taxes that have accumulated between the wheat field and grocer’s shelf.” Are you really going to suggest a major number of those taxes are not federally imposed?

Aside from that, I see you are still unwilling to discuss the consequences connected to the alleged fairtax entitlement called “the family consumption allowance”.

Tell us, Judy, under the alleged fairtax and its family consumption entitlement, how many more “poor working people” would have a vested interest in voting for progressives, socialists and communists during election time who would promise to work to increase the family consumption entitlement? Is this not how Fifth Column members of Congress stay in power in our nation’s poorest voting districts ____ by offering their constituency free government cheese?


Tell us Judy, why are you so eager to create another entitlement, which would help our Fifth Column members in Congress to remain in power by promising our nation’s poor during each election time to alter the fairtax and enlarge the family consumption entitlement?


JWK

If we can make 51 percent of America’s population dependent upon the federal government for its subsistence [the fairtax family consumption allowance check] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ____ Our Fifth Column’s long term strategy ___ a plan to establish a federal plantation that confiscates and then redistributes the bread which labor, business and investors have worked to produce

No, there not countless federal taxes embedded in the price of your products when you pass the FairTax. The FairTax eliminates all the compounded supply chain federal income taxes, all of them. BOOM! Gone with the stroke of a pen.

But hey, this is getting old and boring. I'm happy with where we are right now. Haven't been this happy with what's going on our country in my lifetime, so I'm going to leave you with your Fifth Column (whatever in the hell it is), leave jtdc with his fears of inflation, and MW with his "tax fraud" and watch for news about the Trump Kim Jong Un Summit in Singapore.

In closing, Mr. President, the reason I opened this thread was for you to learn about how the FairTax impacts Trade. Please remember that all this friction, confrontation, bad blood with the Canadians and EU and Mexico, even China, could be much avoided by simply passing the FairTax, which guarantees the American People 23% federal taxation on every single item and service imported into the US and sold in our country to consumers at the final point of retail sale. No feuds, no fuss, no muss ... you just collect the FairTax revenue on all those imports that end up sold in our country, like tariff leaves on our money tree. No trade agreement is necessary, no WTO involved, no military security issue to prove. Just internal domestic taxation 100% under USA control.

I hope someone from the White House still reads our site.

Thank you!!

Originally Posted by Judy

If you like the FairTax as you now claim, then why don't you just say so, and suggest they delete the Rebate and lower the rate or dedicate the savings to paying down this awful national debt? I have no problem at all with either getting rid of the Rebate or keeping it.

I don't see that proposed. But as I have repeatedly said, I don't see that as The Solution. We could have a simple card sized tax form where you report how much you earned in the last year, then write a check to the Treasury for 20% of that amount. From that the government could determine if you need a rebate.

While a sales tax would reduce the number of people who get out of paying income taxes, you are left with no way of knowing who needs help in the form of a rebate. So that solution is to give everybody a rebate. But that tax burden means the tax rate must be higher.

Now in the old days families and churches helped neighbors. They could gauge who was deserving. But government took over that function, rightly or wrongly. Now we would be faced with yanking the rug out from under those needy who have become dependent on the government, much to the dismay of John.

Originally Posted by Judy

I'm good with the FairTax with the Rebate if they need it for some legal or constitutional reason to exempt "necessities" or having the Rebate that exempts "necessities".

We know you are all for the FairTax, however it turns out to be! I guess the title has captured you!

Originally Posted by Judy

The income tax we have now does the same thing as the Standard Deduction and Personal Deduction and Dependent Deductions as the Rebate, so why you or John or anyone else have their ass in a curl over it, is beyond me, because it's completely silly.

It's clear that you just don't get it!

Originally Posted by Judy

No, the FairTax does not tax sales tax on these new goods and services. The FairTax is inclusive, it's in the price BEFORE state and local sales taxes are charged.

BUT NOT BEFORE ALL THE OTHER TAXES, STATE OR FEDERAL, ARE EMBEDDED IN THE CONSUMER PRICE!

With the current Income Tax system, you can be given credit on some major purchases. FairTax won't do that. I'm not saying it is a good thing.

Originally Posted by Judy

You can be pulling down $100,000 a year and still qualify for a number of welfare programs, low-income housing in Northern Virginia for example, you can be pulling down $89,000 a year with 4 kids and qualify for SCHIP in New York State. God knows what you could be pulling down to qualify for programs in California.

I would think you think that is wrong. Yet all your finagling is to keep that going so your FairTax will be accepted.

Originally Posted by Judy

I think you and Johnwk have been asleep at your wheels too long.

I think both you and John are still asleep at the wheel!

Originally Posted by Judy

No, there not countless federal taxes embedded in the price of your products when you pass the FairTax. The FairTax eliminates all the compounded supply chain federal income taxes, all of them. BOOM! Gone with the stroke of a pen.

Which Judy should we believe? When I confronted you about that before you said the FairTax does not affect business taxes, tariff, or excise taxes. Now you are claiming they will all be gone "with the stroke of a pen." I'm getting dizzy from all this spin!

Originally Posted by Judy

But hey, this is getting old and boring. I'm happy with where we are right now.

Then why are you so adamant to change it?

Originally Posted by jtdc

Which are "Value Added Taxes"! They are all part of what makes that bread cost so much.

A head of lettuce sitting in a field costs nothing. Generally they grow naturally. But farmers buy the seeds, buy the water to help them grow, buy pesticides and fertilizes to help them grow, buy and maintain the tractors to plow the fields. And there are taxes included in all of those. Then they hire pickers to harvest the lettuce, a trucking company to take it to a warehouse, then more transportation to deliver it to the market. In my state lettuce is exempt from sales tax as a "necessity of life". But every step to get it there has taxes embedded in them.

President Reagan was talking about the FairTax?

What federal taxes besides the ones I've told you about are embedded in those prices? How much are they? What do they amount to? What is the cost? Based on everything I know, federal income taxes are the single largest source of revenue for the federal government. Outside of federal income taxes, there is about $60 billion a year in tariffs, imposts, duties and "others" which would be excise taxes like the gas tax and corporate privilege tax.

Over 90% of all federal revenue comes from income based taxes that are eliminated by the FairTax Act and replaced with the FairTax sales tax. Because that revenue is not paid at the retail consumption level, there is no compounding of tax or profit or mark-ups so all of that is eliminated from the price of products, including the enormous cost of income tax compliance which is also .... eliminated. Poof@ GONE!!

Link to Federal Sources of Revenue for the Severely Uninformed:

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brie...ral-government

Originally Posted by jtdc

Which Judy should we believe? When I confronted you about that before you said the FairTax does not affect business taxes, tariff, or excise taxes. Now you are claiming they will all be gone "with the stroke of a pen." I'm getting dizzy from all this spin!

Then why are you so adamant to change it?

You're getting dizzy because you're in over your head. What is it about "federal income taxes" versus tariffs that you don't understand? Do you know the difference between federal income taxes and tariffs?

See this is what I actually said:

No, there not countless federal taxes embedded in the price of your products when you pass the FairTax. The FairTax eliminates all the compounded supply chain federal income taxes, all of them. BOOM! Gone with the stroke of a pen.

I never said tariffs, imposts, duties or excises would be gone with the stroke of a pen. I said federal income taxes, all of them, would be gone with the stroke of a pen.

Are you not feeling well? Light=headed dizziness is a sign of some serious issues that often accompany all this confusion you've been suffering through what appears to be a taxing (challenging) thread for you and your feet you keep stumbling over.