Thread: God and illegal immigration!

Originally Posted by dyehard39

This is somewhat on the line of my belief and I do not believe this is the site to discuss this. But anyway.




Hell Part 1: Assurance of Eternal Torment for the Lost
1. Matthew McGee
There was a time when I assumed that any serious Bible student understood and accepted that there will be literal eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire for the lost. Scriptural passages dealing with this issue are so abundant, widely scattered, and straight-forward, that I thought that it was common knowledge among Bible students. However, I have since read articles and received email from those offering some valuable scriptural insights, but then claiming that eternal torment is not Biblical.
Therefore, in Part 1 of this study, we will examine some scriptural passages which simply establish the reality of eternal torment for the wicked. Then in Part 2 we will go into a more detailed study to understand the meanings of the Hebrew word "Sheol", the Greek words "Gehenna" and "Hades", and the English terms "Hell" and the "Lake of Fire".
This first passage from Revelation shows that the lost of the tribulation will be punished by eternal torment.
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:9-11).

My beliefs are that this is symbolic and much of Revelation is.

Notice the phrase: "... in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb ...." I will comment more on this later.
The only way that their smoke can ascend up forever is if they are on fire and are not consumed by the flame. One may be reminded of Moses and the burning bush: "And the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt" (Exodus 3:2-3).
This next passage from Luke shows that the wicked from the Old Testament went to a place of flames and torment. Jesus told of the account of Lazarus and the rich man. We know that this is not a parable because the actual names of Lazarus, Abraham, and Moses are given. The rich man was not in the Lake of Fire yet, but rather, he was, and still is, in Hades. The differences between the Lake of Fire and Hades are discussed in detail in part 2.
"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:19-31).
Notice that the rich man is conscious, in great agony, and well aware of the fact that he cannot leave.
Jesus often spoke of eternal torment for the lost during his earthly ministry:
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43-4. Also see Isaiah 66:22-24.
The Greek word translated "worm" in the above passage is "skolex", which is simply a worm. Worms scavenge dead flesh and are mentioned doing so in several places in scripture such as Job 21:26 and Isaiah 14:11. Acts 12:23 describes how God smote Herod Agrippa I dead, "And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost." The phrase "eaten of worms" is translated from the Greek word "skolekobrotos" which comes from "skolex". Therefore, the statement, "their worm dieth not", may be a reference to how in the Lake of Fire the body (upon which the worms feed) will never be consumed.
Also in Mark 9:43-48 above, the Greek word translated as "never shall be quenched" is "asbestos", which is also sometimes translated "unquenchable". Asbestos is the substance which was used for insulation and for fire safety before it was discovered that its fibers could cause cancer. You may recall using a Bunsen burner in high school science lab and setting a beaker over the flame supported by a white mesh pad made of asbestos. Asbestos is a mineral fiber that can be woven like wool or cotton. Even in ancient times, it was valued because it does not burn. The Greeks sometimes even used it as napkins! They would wipe the food from their mouths with asbestos napkins and throw them into the fire. The flame would burn off the mess, but not consume the asbestos napkin. So it could be used over and over again. Likewise, the body of the lost person will not be consumed by the Lake of Fire, but will exist in the flames for ever.
In the passage below, we see the fate of the great V*******V of Revelation chapter 17.
"For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great V*******V, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever" (Revelation 19:2-3).
At the end of Jesus Christ's 1000 year reign on earth, Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire, where the AntiChrist (Beast) and false prophet will have been for 1000 years. The rest of the lost of all time periods will go into the Lake of Fire following Satan.
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10-15).
Daniel prophesied of two future resurrections, one for the saved and one for the lost.
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).
Jesus also spoke of this: "... the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29). The two resurrections were separated by a semicolon, and it was later clarified in Revelation 20:5 that the two resurrections would be 1000 years apart.
When Jesus Christ returns to the earth at the end of the great tribulation, He will divide the Gentiles into two groups, sheep and goats. Look at what he says to the goats on his left hand:
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:41-46).
The "sheep and goats" event described above is not to be confused with the great white throne of judgment of Revelation 20, which will not occur until 1000 years after the tribulation. Only the lost will be present at the great white throne of judgment.
In Isaiah 14, we see the prophecy of how Israel would one day have a "proverb against the king of Babylon" (Isaiah 14:4). The proverb tells of the king's doom and even includes the taunts of the wicked dead who are likewise damned.
"Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?" (Isaiah 14:9-17).
Notice the statement: "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee ..." in verse 16. Who are they? When will they look narrowly upon The King of Babylon? Isaiah tells more about this:
"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh" (Isaiah 66:22-24). The new heavens and new earth refers to Revelation 21:1 and the eternity beyond the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ. It appears that we will be able to see those being tormented in the Lake of Fire. Perhaps this is for a reminder of the punishment from which we were saved. See also the Revelation 14 passage referenced earlier and the phrase: "... in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb ...."
Notice the references to time and duration in this passage "... as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me ...", "... from one new moon to another ...", "... from one sabbath to another ...." Obviously, the destruction of the damned is not an instant annihilation, but an eternal process.
The Opposing View
In the face of this overwhelming evidence, many will try to twist the scriptures into saying that there is no eternal torment for the lost. They may use arguments such as the following:
1. They may point out 1 Timothy 2:4, which refers to God "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." The Greek word translated "will have" in this verse is "thelo" which means "to have in mind" or "to desire" or "to intend". But just because God desires something, does not mean that he forces it to happen. After all, he desires that we refrain from sin, yet we do sin.
2. Quoting Romans 11:26 they may say "... all Israel shall be saved ...." However, they are ignoring the fact that Paul says in Romans 9:6, "... they are not all Israel, which are of Israel ...." Only those with circumcised hearts will be saved, not merely circumcised flesh.
3. They may refer to passages such as 1 Timothy 1:15, "... Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners ...." Certainly, He will save many sinners, but to conclude that He will save them all, is logically flawed. For example, if you say you are going to the store to buy beans, you do not mean that you are going to buy them all.
4. Some may dispute the translation of the Greek word "aionios", which is most often translated "eternal" or "everlasting" in the King James Version of the Bible. They argue that this word does not mean "eternal", but that it just means "a long time". Let us examine this word more closely to see if this view has any credibility.
The prophecy in Matthew 25:46 provides two examples of the use of this word. At the end of the great tribulation, Jesus Christ will divide the Gentile tribulation survivors into two groups. Then He will say, "And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aionios)." Here, the English words "everlasting" and "eternal" are each translated from the same Greek word "aionios". Over and over, the word "aionios" is also used to describe the punishment of the lost. For example, Matthew 25:41 says, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (aionios) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ...." Some other examples are Matthew 18:8, Mark 3:29, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Hebrews 6:2, and Jude 1:7. Also, the word "aionios" is used over and over to describe the life of those who receive salvation. For example, Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal (aionios) life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Some other examples are John 6:47, Acts 13:48, Romans 5:21, 1 Timothy 1:16, Titus 3:7, 1 John 5:11, and Jude 21. Therefore, those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that the life of those who are saved will one day end.
The word "aionios" is used 71 times in the Bible, and every time it is used, it is describing something that is eternal. The word "aionios" is also used to describe the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14), salvation (Hebrews 5:9), redemption (Hebrews 9:12), the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11), the honor and power of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16), God's glory (1 Peter 5:10), and our immortal bodies that we will one day receive (2 Corinthians 5:1). Those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that all of these will one day expire.
Finally Romans 16:26 says, "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (aionios) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith ...." The word "aionios" is used here as an adjective directly describing God Himself. So, those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that God Himself will one day cease to exist! Obviously, God is everlasting, and so is the torment of the lost.
Besides all of this, there are many Bible passages which make it clear that the punishment of the lost is eternal without even using the word "aionios". Several of these passages have been quoted in this article.
Conclusion
The problem is that despite all that the scriptures say, many people simply do not think it would be fair for God to sentence the wicked to eternal torment. They know that God is just. And they reason, "If God is at least as smart as I am, He will agree with me." They rule out the possibility that God may have insights and information that they lack. Yet God says in Isaiah 55:8-9, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." A three-year old child is not capable of properly judging whether all of his father's rules are best. Similarly, we are not capable of stepping into God's shoes and determining what is just. God is the only one fit to judge our eternal destiny. His Word is very clear. There is a place of eternal punishment for the lost.
http://www.matthewmcgee.org/hel4ever.html
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Hell Part 2: The Differences between Hades and the Lake of Fire
2. Matthew McGee
Now let's get into a little more detail by becoming familiar with some Hebrew and Greek words that are key to understanding this topic.
Sheol (Hebrew) - It is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead. It is not the grave or sepulcher, nor is it the eternal location of the souls of the dead. It is the same as the Greek word "Hades", which we will look at in a moment. Prior to Jesus Christ's resurrection, both the souls of the evil and the righteous went there after death. It is translated "grave" 31 times, "hell" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times in King James Version (KJV) of the Bible.
Sheol (or Hades) has two separate halves. One side was and is reserved for the torment of the evil, while the other side, called "Abraham's Bosom" in Luke 16:22, was for the comfort of the righteous. There is and impassable canyon, or gulf, between the two halves. When Christ was resurrected, he led the righteous out of Sheol to Heaven. Many (probably not all) of the Old Testament saints were resurrected into their immortal bodies at that time (Matthew 27:51-53). Since then, the souls of all of the saved people go directly to Heaven when their bodies die. The lost people still go to Sheol and join the lost people of the Old Testament in torment on one side of the canyon when they die. The other side of Sheol formerly known as Abraham's Bosom has been vacant since Jesus Christ led the saints within it to heaven after His resurrection.
The English word "Hell" refers to a place of eternal punishment for the wicked. Its meaning does not distinguish between the two separate places for the wicked to be punished, one temporary for the soul, and the other, the Lake of Fire, permanent for the soul and body. Nor does its meaning include the place of comfort for saints prior to Christ's resurrection. In normal English conversation, "Hell" is used only in the negative sense, with no saved people ever going there.
This caused some inadequate translations of "Sheol" and "Hades". Often these words are translated "Hell", which, as just explained, is rather ambiguous and non-descriptive. In many other places "Sheol" and "Hades" are translated as "grave", but the grave is only the place for the body after death, not the place for the soul. This confusion often occurs when the verse refers to a righteous man going to "Sheol", such as men like Jacob, Joseph, (Genesis 37:35) and Job (Job 14:13). Of course, these men did not go to a place of torment, but to the comfort side of Sheol (Hades), called Abraham's Bosom.
Hades (Greek) - It is identical to Sheol (Hebrew). It is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead. It is not the grave or sepulcher, nor is it the eternal location of the souls of the dead. Hades is translated "Hell" 10 times and "grave" once by KJV. It is the place for the soul, not the body.
Gehenna (Greek, but originally from a Hebrew name) - translated "Hell" all 12 times in KJV It is the permanent place for destruction of the "... soul and body ..." (Matthew 10:2. It is a place of "... fire that never shall be quenched" (Mark 9:45). In most of the references, it is clear from the context that those who enter Gehenna, do so in their bodies, not merely as bodiless souls. For this to happen, it must occur after the resurrection of the damned at the great white throne of judgment. Therefore, Gehenna is the Lake of Fire described in Revelation 19 and 20. It is presently uninhabited, but the Beast and the False Prophet will be cast into it at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 19:20). One thousand years later, Satan will be cast into it (Rev 20:10) and will be followed shortly by the lost people of all previous time periods (Revelation 20:15). They will all enter Gehenna together, in there resurrected bodies, where they will remain in torment for all eternity.
The future destruction of the wicked is symbolized by the Valley of Hinnom to which Gehenna refers. It is a place south of Jerusalem where the bodies of dead animals and rubbish were taken to be burned. The Valley of Hinnom was also the site of much human sacrifice to the pagan god Molech (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6, Jeremiah 32:35). The fire burned constantly in the valley since additional fuel was frequently being cast into it.
"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place" (Jeremiah 7:31-32). Here we see that in the Valley of Hinnom is a place called "Tophet" whose name means "place of fire".
"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it" (Isaiah 30:33).
limne pur (Greek) - "lake of fire" occurs 4 times, all in Revelation 19 and 20. This is Gehenna, into which the resurrected damned are cast. Limne means "lake" and is translated as such all 10 times it occurs by the KJV. Pur means "fire" and is translated so 73 times by the KJV while being translated "fiery" once.
http://www.matthewmcgee.org/helwords.html

Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 and in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Hell is a real place. Christ said so. There are people there right now.

Matthew 13:42
42 and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Originally Posted by dyehard39

LAKE OF FIRE.

This expression occurs only in the book of revelation and is clearly symbolic. The bible gives its own explanation and definition fo the symbol by stating;"This means the second death, the lake of fire."...Rev 20;14, 21;8.

The symbolic quality of the lake of fire is further evident from the context of references to it in the book of Revelation. Death is said to be hurled into this lake of fire. Rev 20;14,20. Death obviously cannot be literally burned. Moreover, the Devil, and invisible spirit creature, is thrown into the lake, being spirit, he cannot be hurt by literal fire...Rev 20;1) compare Ex 3;2 and Judg 13;20.

Since the lake of fire represents"the second death" and since Revelation 20;14 says that both "death and Hades" are to be cast into it, it is evident that the lake cannot represent the death man has inherited from Adam. (Rom 5;12) nor does it refer to Hades. (Sheol). It must, be symbolic of another kind of death, one that is without reversal, for the record, nowhere speaks of the "lake" as giving up those in it, as do Adamic death and hades.(Sheol). Rev. 20;13). This, those not found written in "the book of life", unrepentant opposers of god’s sovereignty, are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning eternal destruction , or the second death.(Rev 20;15)

while the forgoing texts make evident the symbolic quality of the lake of fire, it has been used by some person to support belief in a literal palace of fire and torment. Revelation 20;10 has been appealed to, because it speaks of the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet as being "tormented day and night forever and ever" in the lake of fire. (Heb 2;14.."Jesus Christ...that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil.")However, this cannot refer to actual conscious torment. Those thrown into the lake of fire undergo "the second death" (Rev 20;14.) In death there is no consciousness and no feeling of pain or suffering....Eccl 9;5.

In the scriptures fiery torment is associated with destruction and death. For example, in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures the word for torment (basanos) is several times used with reference to punishment by death. (Eze 3;20, ..32;24,30.) Similarly, concerning Babylon the great, the book of revelation says, "the kings of the earth...will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke form the burring of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment. (Gr. Basanismou) (Rev 18;9,10) As to the meaning of the torment, an angel later explains;"Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again." (Rev 18;21.) So, fiery torment here is parallel with destruction, and in the case of Babylon the great, it is everlasting destruction,
See; Rev 17;16..18;8, 15-17,19.

Therefore, those who are "tormented forever" (from Gr, basanizo) in the lake of fire undergo "second death"f from which there is no resurrection . The related Greek word basanistes is translated "jailer’ in Matt 18;34, (RS,NW,ED; compare vs 30) this those hurled into the lake of fire will be held under restraint, or "jailed," in death throughout eternity...
There is no word for "hell" in the Hebrew or Greek scripture. Hades and Sheol means the grave but has been mistranslated into "hell."

destroyed which is used throughout the bible as the end for the disobedient.


Deut30;19...I put life and death before you.

Rev 6;23..wages of sin is death

Matt 10;28...destroy both body and soul in gehenna,,,

I take scripture literally, so maybe that's the problem you and I have been having in terms of agreeing that all sinners go to hell.

Originally Posted by AmericanMe

Retro,
There's an old saying: "God helps those who help themselves". I don't think that means...helping themselves by breaking into another country without permission; or helping themselves to social security #'s that don't belong to them; or helping themselves to jobs that belong to Americans; or helping themselves to free money by defrauding the welfare system; or helping themselves by stealing from taxpayers; or helping themselves by slithering over the border to have an anchor baby for law-abiding citizens to support.

I don't think God would approve of all of the illegals who have broken into this country and are sitting in American prisons for heinous crimes they have committed against law-abiding citizens.

But I do think that God would approve if Mexicans stood up to their own corrupt, evil goverment and DEMANDED their inherent rights instead of breaking into our country and DEMANDING rights they are not entitled to.

But it's not about forgiveness, RETRO...it's about following the LAW! We are not in the business of playing God...we are only in the business of upholding the Constitution and laws of our land...JUST AS MEXICO ADHERES TO IT'S CONSTITUTION. Take your flock back to Mexico and fix your own country, please!

I don't care what your opinions are, I only care what God's opinions are. I don't believe in old sayings, only God's sayings. I don't care what you THINK, I care about what God thinks.

Originally Posted by Gogo

Another point that retro said was the God he knows would not burn anyone in hell. Well, I guess you don't read the book of Revelation do you. You pick and choose scripture to fit your agenda and what you believe, not what God says is truth.

End of debate for me. That says it all.

I've never said that... Never! I said ALL sinners go to hell. Why are you putting words in my mouth... That is absurd. That is dyehard's saying! Please read the posts carefully. My first post said that WE ARE NOT ENTITLED TO GO TO HEAVEN.

Goodness, why are you people being hostile? Why are you guys accusing me of saying things I have never said?

Originally Posted by Americanpatriot

Originally Posted by retro

Originally Posted by Americanpatriot

Here is something God commanded:
Thou shall not covet thy neighbor (desire ardently - what belongs to another).

The illegals should not be here coveting our neighborhoods. They need to go back where their alegiances are, renovate their own neighborhoods and not bring ours down to third world status.

I'll leave the forgivness part up to God.

Coveting is jealousy, am I correct? I don't think every illegal people are jealous of America. They see America as opportunity and they're finding jobs to make their lives better. They're not out in your lawn drooling over your brand new car and house. They're out there to build something for themselves.

Have you ever coveted something? I think we all have at a certain point of our lives.

You changed a commandment of God to your opinion and I disagree.

Would it be OK for 10's of millions of Americans to go seek opportunity in Mexico, find jobs and make a better life - at the expense of the Mexican tax payers?

covet - to desire wrongfully, inordinately, or without due regard for the rights of others: to covet another's property; to have an inordinate or wrongful desire. (dictionary.com)

Jealousy - jealous resentment against a rival, a person enjoying success or advantage, etc., or against another's success or advantage itself; mental uneasiness from suspicion or fear of rivalry, unfaithfulness, etc., as in love or aims; vigilance in maintaining or guarding something.

Some illegals, not all, are clearly not jealous or covetous. The people I've met are certainly not covetous or jealous at the things their neighbors have. They take public transportation and never asked why they aren't allowed driver's licenses.

i was not changing the commandment. you are accusing me of something that i didn't do. So is it wrong if I want to buy ice cream after I've seen my sister eat ice cream? Is it wrong if I want to buy a Cadillac after I've seen my friend buy a Cadillac?

Originally Posted by dyehard39

Originally Posted by Americanpatriot

Originally Posted by retro

Originally Posted by Americanpatriot

Here is something God commanded:
Thou shall not covet thy neighbor (desire ardently - what belongs to another).


Coveting is jealousy, am I correct? I don't think every illegal people are jealous of America. They see America as opportunity and they're finding jobs to make their lives better. They're not out in your lawn drooling over your brand new car and house. They're out there to build something for themselves.

Have you ever coveted something? I think we all have at a certain point of our lives.

[quote]“You must not covet (desire)your fellow man’s house.â€

Originally Posted by retro

Originally Posted by Americanpatriot

Originally Posted by retro

Originally Posted by Americanpatriot

Here is something God commanded:
Thou shall not covet thy neighbor (desire ardently - what belongs to another).

The illegals should not be here coveting our neighborhoods. They need to go back where their alegiances are, renovate their own neighborhoods and not bring ours down to third world status.

I'll leave the forgivness part up to God.

Coveting is jealousy, am I correct? I don't think every illegal people are jealous of America. They see America as opportunity and they're finding jobs to make their lives better. They're not out in your lawn drooling over your brand new car and house. They're out there to build something for themselves.

Have you ever coveted something? I think we all have at a certain point of our lives.

You changed a commandment of God to your opinion and I disagree.

Would it be OK for 10's of millions of Americans to go seek opportunity in Mexico, find jobs and make a better life - at the expense of the Mexican tax payers?

covet - to desire wrongfully, inordinately, or without due regard for the rights of others: to covet another's property; to have an inordinate or wrongful desire. (dictionary.com)

Jealousy - jealous resentment against a rival, a person enjoying success or advantage, etc., or against another's success or advantage itself; mental uneasiness from suspicion or fear of rivalry, unfaithfulness, etc., as in love or aims; vigilance in maintaining or guarding something.

Some illegals, not all, are clearly not jealous or covetous. The people I've met are certainly not covetous or jealous at the things their neighbors have. They take public transportation and never asked why they aren't allowed driver's licenses.

i was not changing the commandment. you are accusing me of something that i didn't do. So is it wrong if I want to buy ice cream after I've seen my sister eat ice cream? Is it wrong if I want to buy a Cadillac after I've seen my friend buy a Cadillac?

God's commandment said: Thou shall NOT covet they neighbor.

Fogive me but I disagree with your opinion/version of reality. I'll answer your question when you answer mine.

U.S. Tech Workers Bear Brunt of Immigration PolicyThursday , April 29, 2004
By Matt Hayes

In April, 2003, Kevin Flanagan, a computer programmer with Bank of America (search), was fired from his job after being forced to train his replacement, an Indian worker who was taking over Flanagan's job as part of Bank of America's effort to replace its American workforce with foreign labor. Flanagan walked outside into his office parking lot and shot himself to death.
A year later, it's no surprise that the impact of foreign labor (search) on American workers has become a potent political issue this campaign season. What Americans need to understand is how complicit the U.S. government has been in helping large corporations secure cheap foreign labor, and the impact that has had not just on American workers, but on the foreign laborers doing their jobs for a fraction of their wages.
In 2000, with the economy entering a full recession, America imported 650,263 foreign workers under two employer-friendly visa programs, H-1B (search) and L-1 (search). In 2001, with the economy still struggling and the tech industry laying off 500,000 American workers, Congress responded to heavy lobbying by business interests by signing off on another 712, 671 employment-related visas for the year -- a surge of nearly 10 percent in labor imports.
Even a 2002 report by the undersecretary for technology at the Department of Commerce, which found that several years of data did not support the IT industry lobbyists’ claims of a critical worker shortage, could not stop Congress from issuing another 684,189 H-1B and L-1 visas that year.
The flood continued into 2003. As top-dollar lobbyists made the rounds on Capitol Hill with the story that technology corporations couldn't find American computer programmers (and those corporations dumped money into Washington -- $201 million in 2000 alone), American IT workers across the country were being laid off.And while some members of Congress, fresh from depositing their campaign contribution checks, were justifying their pro-industry votes with the industry line that Americans -- the people who invented computers -- were just too lacking in skills to program them, story after story emerged of middle-aged American IT workers fired and replaced with 25-year-old foreign nationals.
As a final indignity, these American workers -- many with families, American mortgages to pay, and college tuitions to save -- are often required to train their own replacements in order to receive their desperately needed severance packages.
Since Congress raised the H-1b visa cap in 2000, over two million employment-related visas have been issued. But it isn't only Americans who are suffering.
The replacement workers are also often victims. Not only does the foreign replacement worker earn about half what the American he or she replaced did, but Congress lets the worker's American boss control the visa -- ensuring a workforce as compliant as it is cheap. If the foreign worker complains about low wages, unpaid overtime, lack of health care or deplorable living conditions, the boss can yank the visa.Remarkably, in spite of the number of Americans devastated by the employment visa programs, and despite the fact that the injustices would seem to make scrapping them an easy moral call, some of those in Congress continue to work aggressively to import even higher numbers of both skilled and unskilled foreign workers.
Rep. Chris Cannon, R-Utah, has in many ways taken the leadership role in increasing immigration (a role he took from former Michigan Sen. Spencer Abraham, whose immigration policies played a major role in his 2000 defeat.) The Washington Post has called Cannon the "point man" in Congress for Bush administration efforts to push for an illegal aliens amnesty
In an October 2000 press release titled “Cannon Manages House Passage of High Tech Visa Bill," Rep. Cannon took credit for passing the American Competitiveness in the Twenty-First Century Act of 2000 (search), the very act that marked the onset of the current flood.
In the four years since the passage of the bill, stories like Kevin Flanagan's don't seem to have dampened enthusiasm. This year, Cannon has signed on to several bills that would increase immigration, and introduced a couple of his own. His AgJOBS bill (search), which is both a massive new amnesty for illegal aliens and a major new guest worker program, has drawn the enthusiastic endorsement of some four hundred groups and organizations -- overwhelmingly business interests. His efforts have earned him awards of appreciation from immigration lawyers' interests and ethnic-identity organizations.
As the impact on Americans grows more severe, however, a political backlash becomes increasingly likely. Even cynical veterans of the anti-H-1b wars, who for years have been resigned to the influence of corporate interests in American politics, are beginning to talk about real signs of a major shift.
Chris Cannon is at the center of much of this talk. Once considered one of the safest Republicans in Congress -- a 10-year incumbent in the most Republican district of the most Republican state in the country--Cannon's history on immigration issues has become a political hot potato in Utah. One of his challengers, Matt Throckmorton (search), an up-and-coming former state legislator, has been a long-time critic of Cannon's immigration policies and his message has struck home. Cannon has been forced into either defending his amnesty bills (a policy opposed by four out of five Americans), or flat out denying he supports amnesties (which his record makes impossible).
Meanwhile, a disgruntled former IT worker has gathered compelling evidence of what appears to be questionable financial arrangements between Cannon and those who profit by his cheap labor votes in Congress. Salt Lake City's Deseret News printed a letter from the worker detailing the evidence, which was picked up by the RescueAmericanJobs Web site. On Monday, the former IT worker filed a formal ethics complaint.Nevertheless, it remains to be seen whether any of this will result in change in Washington.
Yet somewhere in America, a middle-aged American will be training his replacement how to do his job at half the cost, and wondering what will happen to his family once the severance money runs out. As he cleans out his desk, another group of smart, young lobbyists in thousand-dollar suits will be telling some member of Congress how their client, an IT giant, has really, really tried to find an American who can program computers.
Matt Hayes began practicing immigration law shortly after graduating from Pace University School of Law in 1994, representing new immigrants in civil and criminal matters. He is the author of The New Immigration Law and Practice, to be published in October.
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly ... 73,00.html

Playing the Race Card: Black vs Brown
June 2nd, 2007


Who wins and who loses through illegal immigration?

The biggest winners are employers of iillegals. First, they get the cost savings of cheaper labor. Second, they can now pay everyone less for the same job, since those who got fired and replaced by illegals must now accept lower wages in order to work, as the wages of all workers doing that job are reduced to what the lowest paid workers will accept. And once certain jobs are performed mostly by illegals, benefits (such as medical or pension benefits) are reduced or eliminated, job safety standards can be ignored, and unionization becomes impossible when strikers can always be replaced by an infinite supply of scab laborers. And those cost savings give corporate criminals an incomparable competitive advantage over employers who obey the laws. As long as employers know they will suffer no sanctions, the advantages of employing illegals over Americans are truly amazing.
The next winners are the illegals themselves. As I outlined previously, illegals can leverage the first world wages here against the third world cost of living of their extended families to get a strong competitive advantage over their neighbors back home through remittances.
So who loses? Blacks, first and foremost, as I noted before. The question is why would Liberals, Democrats let it happen? Why would Democratic politicians let Blacks, their most loyal supporters, slide into oblivion by supporting handing their jobs off to illegal immigrants?
Well, because that’s what happens every time a new wave of immigrants enters the country. White Liberals dump Blacks just as eagerly as white Conservatives do.
This time around part of it is crass political number crunching. Hispanics now outnumber Blacks and if Democrats can curry their favor and a majority of their votes, they may be able to make up for losing the votes of all the white racists in the South after the Civil Rights Act of 1964, especially since all those white racists voting solid Republican means Blacks really have nowhere else to go, so Dems can give them lip service and then abandon them with impunity.
And the dirty little secret…despite Democratic gloating that on the immigration issue Republicans are split between corporatist Republicans (â€

So right dyehard39. Remember the link to the YouTube video we had on ALIPAC of a lawyers group giving a conference on HOW NOT TO HIRE THE AMERICAN job seeker but to hire the illegal. Stunning evidence that illegals DO covet our jobs.