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  1. #531
    Senior Member BetsyRoss's Avatar
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    I'm ok with people not looking forward to the Obama presidency. A lot of people hate liberalism. A lot of people have serious reservations about Obama. They dislike his politics, his past, his plans for the future. I'm fine with that, and I don't see him making every one happy (and he has made a LOT of promises!). But at the same time I understand why he got elected, why people were so upset with the status quo under Bush, why they suspected that McCain would be a Bush third term, and why they were willing to vote for a wild card just to make the Bush years end. And Obama's organization on the ground was superb. Maybe it's because I live near a large black population, but they were all over and even came to my house - more than once.
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  2. #532
    Senior Member cayla99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BetsyRoss
    I'm ok with people not looking forward to the Obama presidency. A lot of people hate liberalism. A lot of people have serious reservations about Obama. They dislike his politics, his past, his plans for the future. I'm fine with that, and I don't see him making every one happy (and he has made a LOT of promises!). But at the same time I understand why he got elected, why people were so upset with the status quo under Bush, why they suspected that McCain would be a Bush third term, and why they were willing to vote for a wild card just to make the Bush years end. And Obama's organization on the ground was superb. Maybe it's because I live near a large black population, but they were all over and even came to my house - more than once.
    I agree with you Betsy, the people have voted. However, when the majority was against the civil rights movement, the constitution stepped in. The constitution trumped the will of the people, and equality and greater opportunities were given to the black people. Blacks, more than any other segment of our population should back putting the constitution before the will of the people. If that had not been done in the 60's, we would still be living under "separate but equal".

    Now it is 2009, and once again it looks like there might be another conflict between the constitution and the will of the people. Like the civil rights movement, it is imperative that the Constitution trumps the will of the people. We can not have it both ways.

    If there is something in Obamas past that he feels he has to fight this hard to hide, he might easily succumb to blackmail. That is not in the interest of ANY of the people, black, brown, red, yellow or white.
    Proud American and wife of a wonderful LEGAL immigrant from Ireland.
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  3. #533
    Senior Member BetsyRoss's Avatar
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    He still seems cool as a cucumber to me. Perhaps his background in Chicago politics will make the White House seem like a cakewalk.

    I went to college in Northern Illinois and heard things from locals about Chicago ....
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  4. #534
    FreedomFirst's Avatar
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    There is a theory afoot that Obama is already being blackmailed, and that his "status quo" appointments -- particularly with reference to keeping Gates at Defense and putting Hillary at State Dept and, most recently, announcing Leon Panetta at CIA which has the Dems in charge of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in an absolute uproar because they weren't consulted in advance and have questions about ol' Leon's lack of prior experience in gathering "intelligence" even if he is an "old Washington hand" after serving as Clinton's Chief of Staff (sitting in on briefings where intelligence-gatherers brought information) and 16 years in Congress -- are proof of the pudding.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/us/po ... ia.html?em

    Jay Rockefeller and Dianne Feinstein are letting their "upset" about the Panetta choice show, while George Tenet (holdover from Clinton to Bush and favorite "fall guy" for people who like to defend Cheney's role in the mythical WMD in Iraq) is quoted as "praising" the Panetta appointment. Theory is that State Dept/CIA and Defense Dept's intelligence units all "have the goods" on Obama -- since an original birth certificate or a "recently amended" certificate showing Soetoro -- would have been filed for the passport used by Obama in traveling as a child to Indonesia. So players with the goods, mostly the Clintons who could have gotten anything they wanted from Gates I should think, are using those goods to maximum effect. Obama and "change" looks very much like a Clinton Third Term.

    http://thecapitalist.newsvine.com/_news ... y-pe-obama

    Last summer, and on video as Bill Clinton was asked if he thought that Obama was ready to be President, there was that famous remark:
    "everybody has a right to run for president as long as they’re qualified under the Constitution."

    Clintons and Gates and others are in a position to know exactly what they need to know to make Obama do as asked (or demanded).

  5. #535
    Senior Member cayla99's Avatar
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    Last summer, and on video as Bill Clinton was asked if he thought that Obama was ready to be President, there was that famous remark:
    "everybody has a right to run for president as long as they’re qualified under the Constitution."
    I think wee willy was trying to tell us something that he knew he could not come right out and say. No doubt in my mind he was letting us know the dark little secret. Throughout his campaigning for Hillary, he often said that Obama is "not qualified" for the job. He did not say had no experience, or was not able to perform his duties, he always used the term "not qualified". I am sure he was warned against letting this dirty secret be known in public. After all, Obama insulted Hillary on foreign policy more than any other policy, yet he makes her Secretary of State? Hello.....Blackmail
    Proud American and wife of a wonderful LEGAL immigrant from Ireland.
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  6. #536
    Senior Member azwreath's Avatar
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    Cayla, you bring up a great point that I've said all along. And that point is that we can bet our bottom dollar that our government already knows ALL there is to know about obama.

    For one, his radical and militant activities as a "community organizer", his associations with criminals, terrorists, foreign dictators, etc. would NOT have gone unnoticed, investigated, and kept tabs on by various government agencies.

    Secondly, a junior senator, who has never done anything of note, and steps forward to run for potus so OBVIOUSLY well financed, groomed, rehearsed, etc. WOULD have most definitely raised further suspicion and his opponents would have made damned sure they were looking for anything under the sun to discredit him.

    Lastly, the silence on the issue of his BC, associations and everything else, was a big indicator that something is up behind the scenes. His opponents, just by the nature of politics, SHOULD have been using every last bit of it to undermine his credibility with the American people and they didn't. The big question is WHY?

    While blackmail is very possible, it is also still very possible that this has something to do with invesitgational issues and future arrests because, let's face it.....what this would be a case of would make even the worst of corruption cases look like a petty crime.
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  7. #537
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    I think that certain people in our CONGRESS know all there is to know about the "natural born concealment effort" engaged in by both McCain and Obama.

    I kept running across inaccurate information in some of the older articles which found McCain or his campaign staff claiming to reporters that he was born "on Coco Solo Naval Station" which was a "military installation" and that he had shown a copy of of his birth certificate to some Washington Post reporter who claimed it was signed by some military official.

    But by the time this whole "issue" came to my attention in the days just before the election, I had already come across an image of a long form BC from the Colon Hospital in Panama. So I wondered what was up.

    It looks like one of the three plaintiffs who brought actions against McCain went to the extra effort to locate his longform BC -- which might have been an easier proposition for an American to get from a FOREIGN GOVERNMENT than it is for us to get from OUR OWN state governments thanks to HIPPA (which didn't used to protect things so why make it a retroactive statute when it's just vital statistics matters anyway)????

    Article from today
    http://www.newswithviews.com/Stuter/stuter137.htm

    Older article from Washington Post where McGaskill comes right out and says that there isn't enough time to run a Constitutional Amendment thru the works between spring of 2008 and when they'll need it in November, and that they couldn't get legislation enacted either!!!! So a joint resolution will let the "courts know" that Congress intends to define natural born and deal with this issue (thank you, veddy much).

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03224.html

    And then a rundown on the Hannity Forums from last fall that shows McCain pulling the same kind of stunts as Obama has been pulling. First by supposedly showing a BC to the Washington Post reporter who gives his accounting of it (a document from a "family hospital" ON THE BASE), and that right around the time that a February 2008 NY Times article came out with the legal research of Prof. Gabriel Chin, undermining McCain as ineligible. (WHich McCain might have been expecting since a February 2008 bill was introduced to make military offspring "natural born" but it didn't even get out of committee.)

    http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:0Fj ... cd=7&gl=us

    Next thing was a SHORT FORM certificate, which was issued long after the birth, and in 1980.

    http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnew ... birth.html

    As the Forums post described things:

    Now up front, I believe McCain is eligible for Presidency. I am not really quibbling about the fact he, as son of an US Admiral, should be considered eligible for the office.

    This whole Obama Birth Certificate thing (which has yielded, what 600 threads by now?) and Obama's unwillingness to release it (which to most (normal) people's satisfaction, he has) - brought about this discussion in a few other threads. I just find it curious why McCain felt the need to lie to people about his birth place.

    ======
    John McCain has said he was born at the "CoCo Solo Family Hospital."
    It should be noted, the CoCo Solo Hospital was not built until 1941.
    The order to build it was not given until December of 1941. LINK
    ======

    In February, when this topic was being broached, a reporter from the Washington Post said this:

    "As I reported earlier, the McCain campaign has declined to publicly release the senator's birth certificate. But a senior campaign official showed me a copy of his birth certificate issued by the "family hospital" in the Coco Solo submarine base."
    (huh, declined?...but they showed ONLY the reporter a copy....hmmm (remind you of anyone??) (and CoCo Solo...huh?)

    He continues: "The birth certificate was signed by Captain W. L. Irvine. I have now checked that name against the Naval Register for 1936, and I find that William Lorne Irvine was director of the medical facility at the submarine base hospital in Coco Solo, Panama Canal Zone."
    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fac...irthplace.html

    ------------------>In the court case Hollander vs. McCain :
    "Senator John McCain Is Native Born To the Republic of Panama. Defendants have chosen to bypass the authority of this Court to rule on the credibility of evidence, instead asking this Court to admit the opinion of a web log to which they have submitted a copy of McCain's birth certificate." -Hollander v McCain

    Only submitted it to a 'web log' ? Which one, where? (another note that has an eerie parallel to you know who.) Anyone see this BC he submitted to a web log?

    BUT LOOK: The birth certificate obtained by the plaintiff (From the Republic of Panama Birth Records) in that lawsuit shows THIS is his birth certificate here: LINK TO JOHN MCCAIN'S BC (Short Form)

    And HERE is the long form: AT THIS LINK You can see it for yourself:

    BORN IN THE COLON HOSPITAL!

    Colon is the capital of Colon Province in the Republic of Panama. Never at any time has Colon been a part of the Panama Canal Zone, or any other entity, military or civilian, controlled by the U.S. Government. Colon has for the entirety of its 150 year history been wholly a part of the Republic of Panama.

    Therefore Senator McCain was born in the Republic of Panama. Not on base.

    Therefore Senator McCain may be as much a citizen of Panama as the United States.

    Yes, not on base, and NOT at CoCo Solo Family Hospital as he said, and supposedly showed to the reporter. Was that BC he showed...a forgery?
    Why did he refuse to release it to the public?
    Is it because it was a phony?
    Has ANYONE seen that one where it says CoCo Solo?

    Like I said, I don't dispute his eligibility, but - why did John McCain lie about where he was born?
    You can Google "Colon Hospital" for images and you'll find the place was erected to serve the needs of people who were involved in building the canal waaaaay back when and putting in the canal. It is in the city of Colon, which is separated by a body of water from the actual Coco Solo facility. And McCain even got his nearly 100 year old mother to "recollect" that she heard -- from her hospital bed in the family hospital on the military post -- the sound of naval pals celebrating her son John's birth in the OFFICERS' CLUB?????

    OK ... this whole deal stinks. We've been scammed. We know we've been scammed. And we've got courts saying we as citizens don't have standing to report a gigantic scamming after waking up to figuring out what was REALLY going on.

    If I had a giant bowl of Hawaiian shaved ice and either McCain or Obama was passing by, I'm not sure WHICH miscreant I'd want to throw it at. WHERE DO WE DREDGE UP THESE LYING CLOWNS FROM, ANYWAY, and allow them to occupy seats that ought to be filled by HONEST STATESMEN?

  8. #538
    FreedomFirst's Avatar
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    As recently as June 2008, McCain might have been attempting to skate by on "proofs" such as this.



    It mentions a doctor (probably long dead) but no PHYSICAL FACILITY of birth.

    In his case, it made a heap of difference to try to stretch things and say he was born "on the base" rather than "in a Panamanian city" -- even though our own U.S. State Dept. has made it clear that U.S. bases and embassies should not be considered U.S. soil.

  9. #539
    Senior Member vmonkey56's Avatar
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    quote from FreedomFirst:
    It mentions a doctor (probably long dead) but no PHYSICAL FACILITY of birth.

    In his case, it made a heap of difference to try to stretch things and say he was born "on the base" rather than "in a Panamanian city" -- even though our own U.S. State Dept. has made it clear that U.S. bases and embassies should not be considered U.S. soil.
    EXACTLY.... and I want Obama's cleared up, too. Can't we Americans find just one natural soil born citizen to be president? I remember making sure I had my children on American Soil when I was in the military. But I guess the elitists even in the military think they can change laws as they go along.
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  10. #540
    FreedomFirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmonkey56
    quote from FreedomFirst:
    It mentions a doctor (probably long dead) but no PHYSICAL FACILITY of birth.

    In his case, it made a heap of difference to try to stretch things and say he was born "on the base" rather than "in a Panamanian city" -- even though our own U.S. State Dept. has made it clear that U.S. bases and embassies should not be considered U.S. soil.
    EXACTLY.... and I want Obama's cleared up, too. Can't we Americans find just one natural soil born citizen to be president? I remember making sure I had my children on American Soil when I was in the military. But I guess the elitists even in the military think they can change laws as they go along.
    Well, last time I looked, Ron Paul was a Natural Borner! He really had some younger voters rallying around his candidacy as a change-maker. Too bad the GOP was so dismissive during the primaries and at the convention. Now, with the party in shambles, they might be realizing the mistake of all the selling out that's made them a shadow of former selves.

    As far as the not-natural born folks, they've been plotting and scheming for awhile. I keep adding information to the timeline.

    1998 -- Potential "first trigger" of interest as McCain's eligibility issue was raised even before his first foray into the 2000 GOP primaries
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/po ... 070998.htm

    2000 -- the Barney Frank proposed Constitutional Amendment, which went to hearings and faced enough opposition it never got rolling along for a Congressional vote and then on to the states for ratification.
    http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/ju ... 306_0f.htm

    2003 -- the Orrin Hatch proposed Constitutional Amendment (ostensibly for Governor Arnold, according to some press accounts in the San Francisco newspapers and others, but possibly introduced more because Hatch really had McCain in mind)
    http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/hearing.cfm?id=885

    February 25, 2004 -- the "brass balls" Congressional attempt to usurp the functions of the judiciary by redefining "natural born citizen" in such a way that the provisions fulfilling its conditions would make it equivalent to 8 U.S.C. 1401 (statutes wholly dependent upon the 14th Amendment as their authorizing source, and therefore confined only to "citizenship" conditions) rather than the Court-ruled (Perkins v Elg) two pronged test of #1 Birth inside Country + #2 Parents who are BOTH citizens

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s108-2128

    Here's the text of the bill, and since there appears to be no record of it even getting any hearings, there's reason to believe that a legally-trained staff lawyer on the Judiciary Committee probably took aside the Numbnutz Congress people trying to pull off that caper and flat-out told them they were attempting something that was unConstitutional.

    http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:-8m ... mmary%2520

    February 2008 -- the bill that "went nowhere" ... McGaskill apparently thought that she'd get a gender-smart VP nod from Obama if she did enough favors for Obama, who had some "self-interest" in co-sponsoring this bill for McCain.

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-2678

    April 2008 -- the "punt" of a non-binding Senate Resolution
    http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200804/041008c.html

    Some of the WaPo reporting on the resolution showed that McGaskill might finally have had lectures from staff counsel sinking into her thick little head about what can "fly" and what "can't fly" when it comes to legislation that tries to pull end-runs around the Constitution.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03224.html

    "Senators sympathetic to McCain's position, including Democrats Claire McCaskill (Mo.) and Patrick J. Leahy (Vt.), dropped an earlier attempt to quell the eligibility controversy with legislation. McCaskill acknowledged in an interview that there is "no way" to completely resolve the question short of a constitutional amendment, a cumbersome process which could not be concluded before November. She described the nonbinding resolution, which she sponsored, as "the quickest, clearest and most efficient" way for the Senate to send a message to the courts that McCain has the right to be president."
    Oooh, sorry, alert the media ........ amending the Constitution is CUMBERSOME. Yeah, right. And maybe that's for a reason, Senator Claire.

    I don't know who wrote this next article, although one of the Comments below the actual column claim that it might be a Mr. Hobbs, but at a time when McCain was still lying about his own personal story, and the plaintiff in one of the court cases (maybe Fred Hollander, who filed up in N.H.) was still trying to track down original birth documents, the supposed Fact Checker (Mr. Hobbs?) at the Washington Post was willing to claim that McCain had been born INSIDE the military area of the Canal Zone.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-c ... place.html



    John McCain, widely reported to have been born in the Panama Canal Zone in the Coco Solo Naval Hospital, COULD NOT have been born in Coco Solo Hospital and probably wasn't born in the Canal Zone at all."
    --News Busters blog, Feb. 21, 2008.

    Some bloggers are questioning John McCain's right to run for the presidency on the basis of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. They have produced "evidence" showing that that the hospital where the Arizona senator says he was born was not built until 1941--five years after McCain's birth. A review of the archival record shows that there was a small hospital at the Coco Solo submarine base in 1936 and also reveals the name of the U.S. Navy physician who signed McCain's birth certificate.

    The Facts
    I dealt with the constitutional debate on whether McCain is a "natural born citizen" in a previous post. (According to the Constitution, only "natural born citizens" have the right to run for the presidency.") The senator bases his eligibility claim on the fact that he was (1) born on a military base in the Panama Canal Zone at a time when it was effectively under U.S. sovereignty and (2) both of his parents were U.S. citizens.

    As I reported earlier, the McCain campaign has declined to publicly release the senator's birth certificate. But a senior campaign official showed me a copy of his birth certificate issued by the "family hospital" in the Coco Solo submarine base. (McCain's grandfather commanded the Coco Solo Naval Air Station in 1936; his father was the executive officer of a submarine based in Coco Solo.)

    The birth certificate was signed by Captain W. L. Irvine. I have now checked that name against the Naval Register for 1936, and I find that William Lorne Irvine was director of the medical facility at the submarine base hospital in Coco Solo, Panama Canal Zone, during that time period. You can see the entry here.

    http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/ ... vine_2.pdf

    I think this effectively disposes of any remaining doubts that McCain was born inside the Canal Zone.

    The senator's 96-year-old mother, Roberta McCain, recalled the occasion in a Mother's Day video available here. She recalled "the 27 bottles of Scotch" stacked on a table of the nearby Officers' Club, gifts to her husband in celebration of the arrival of "the sweetest, nicest child I have ever known."

    The Pinocchio Test
    There is a valid constitutional debate about what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they decided that only "natural born" citizens should be eligible for the presidency. But there is no foundation for the rumors that have surfaced on the Internet that John McCain was born in the Panamanian city of Colon, rather than inside the U.S.-administered Panama Canal Zone.

    When it comes to men ambitious for POTUS, the Audacity of Deceit knows no bounds ... God bless Hollander or whichever plaintiff located the Real McCoy and exposed the one member of the media who wrote the authoritative sounding report above, for being a disreputable shill who was "in the tank" for McCain.


    Here's the foundation for the TRUTH that McCain absolutely, positively WAS born in the Panamanian city of Colon. And it doesn't look like the doctor was named IRVINE like the lying Washington Post Fact Checker claimed, the name seems to be a Dr. R.P.Annis or 'Annie' ...


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