Thread: A few questions to all of the members here from an observer

StraightShooter wrote

What we find amazing is that so many like you, Roberto, don't seem to have a clue about the concept of laws and obeying them or even enforcing them. You're not alone in this. Millions in this country are in the same boat as you. If I didn't know any better, I would think people like you think everything is ok until you get caught.

Are you saying that you think Roberto might think that everything is legal until you get caught? Like speeding? Like stealing? Like shoplifting? Like driving off without paying for gas? Like driving a car with no license or car insurance? Like working under the table for a dispicible employer for cash and paying no taxes like the new slaves of our Country who are not smart enough to realize they are the "New Slaves"? Like the fact that criminal illegal alien economic terrorism is

ILLEGAL? Even if you don't get caught?

Character is doing the right thing when no one else is watching.

Good post, Richard, and welcome to ALIPAC.
Roberto states that he doesn't come to argue. Of course he does. He expects us to defend ourselves for not assuming the false responsibility of the poor of the entire world...failing to see that if we attempt to do that all we accomplish is changing positions with them. This nations resources are finite and must be managed properly for any of us to survive.

RR

Originally Posted by good12me

StraightShooter wrote

What we find amazing is that so many like you, Roberto, don't seem to have a clue about the concept of laws and obeying them or even enforcing them. You're not alone in this. Millions in this country are in the same boat as you. If I didn't know any better, I would think people like you think everything is ok until you get caught.

Are you saying that you think Roberto might think that everything is legal until you get caught? Like speeding? Like stealing? Like shoplifting? Like driving off without paying for gas? Like driving a car with no license or car insurance? Like working under the table for a dispicible employer for cash and paying no taxes like the new slaves of our Country who are not smart enough to realize they are the "New Slaves"? Like the fact that criminal illegal alien economic terrorism is

ILLEGAL? Even if you don't get caught?

Character is doing the right thing when no one else is watching.

Now THAT'S what I'm talk'en 'bout! Well said!

Roberto!! Welcome to ALIPAC!!

You have raised many good points and issues about the immigration debate. But, you implied that Americans for Legal Immigration are against "all people of the world".

Roberto!! Read, read, read!! Learn about someone or something before you make a statement that might offend people who are trying to save our nation. You need to understand the big picture, as I believe that is what you seek, an understanding of the "big picture"?

I assume from the information you shared about your background that you are an American Citizen. Now, you stated something along the lines of "You act like you own the United States?"

Roberto, American Citizens DO OWN the United States. We decide who comes into this country the same way you would decide who to invite into your house. You don't have to explain to your neighbors why you don't answer the door; why you don't invite in for dinner every person who knocks on your door; do you?

The protection of a nation is no different than the protection of a family or a property. Those who own it decide who shares in it and these decisions are made as a group and put into law for all to follow.

The American People are not required to share any of America with anyone. Over the years we have established US Immigration law to share part of our property, society, culture with "new comers". It used to be a modest, reasonable and manageable number. About 10 years ago without most American's knowledge, the Congress DOUBLED that number and again without most American's knowledge, the Congress dramatically INCREASED the number of additional immigrants on top of the normal immigration numbers through WORK VISAS. A few years later, Bushey Boy gets elected and again without the knowledge of most American's he lays down on his back like a lazy scheming Traitor and abandons the rule of law with regards to US Immigration Law.

He did this WITHOUT OUR PERMISSION AND WITHOUT OUR CONSENT and in my book BROKE THE LAW when he took an oath, swore to uphold the law, and instead abandoned it.

You gave an illustration about good people and asked why not let good people come to the United States? You also asked if Jose from Peru can do the job as well or better than an American, why not give Jose the job? Because it is not your job to give to Jose for any reason. NO ONE in the United States Government has the right or authority to take your job and give it to someone else from another country. NO ONE.

And, that is just the way it is; and that's the way it's going to stay. Americans created these jobs generation after generation. It's easy to waltz into the greatest country in the world and say, "wow, this is nice, I'm gonna get me some of that"....the way a thief walks into a fancy department store and says, wow, this is NICE, I'm gonna get me some that...and walks out with the goods that belong to someone else.....the way a rapist walks in to a party and sees a pretty girl and says, wow, she is NICE, I'm gonna get me some of that....the way a repairman called to fix your sink looks in your drawers and finds some jewelry when your back is turned and says...WOW, this is NICE, I'm gonna get me some of that and stuffs his pockets with your family's heirlooms.

See Roberto, the United States is not a "flea market". Our possessions, our technology, our assets, our culture, our way of life, our standards of living, our jobs, our neighborhoods, our streets.....aren't on the "block" for any foreign national to come in and say, "WOW, this is nice, I'm gonna get me some of that and just move in and take it". Good God Man, what are you thinking?

The American Dream is for Americans and those it invites from time to time to share in that dream. We are not an Open Country and never have been. We do not want to become an Open Country and never will.

You, your family, certain parts of my family, many parts of most American families have a history and a heritage that is American. Either they are descendants of the Pilgrims, native Americans, the Settlers, or those who were invited in to build America and become part of the dream. Parts of my family and parts many American families were here from the beginning of our Nation during the Revolutionary War.

What is happening now...is not settling America.....it is taking America....outsiders, foreigners, uninvited, unwelcome...sneaking in all to "get me some of that". They've taken jobs away from Americans, which I call stealing. They've started businesses like other American businesses and because that made for too many businesses already in the same line of work, many of the Americans lost their businesses due to unfair and illegal competition from outsiders, foreigners, uninvited and unwelcome.....which I call stealing.

An illegal immigrant that enters this country for a job or an opportunity without invitation or approval is not a good person. They are a THIEF because they took something nice that belonged to someone else.

The United States doesn't owe any person from any country anything except payment for a good purchased. That is all we ever owe any other person or business from another nation. Anything above that which we do, is out of generosity and because we have decided at that time for that moment that this is a good thing and we will support this effort of freedom and economic assistance of some type. BUT only after it has been discussed, agreed upon, and the consent given by the American People.

Americans do not want a larger more crowded population. We find it uncomfortable and unhealthy. This results in too much land development, too many cars, using too much energy, too many homes, using too much energy, too many poor people, using too much tax money, too many criminal people, using too much law enforcement, causing more crime than we wish to live around, spend time trying to solve, or worry about. Too many people means crowded schools, over-burdened hospitals, rising taxes, deficit spending, government shortfalls, defalted wages and salaries, and a DECLINE IN THE STANDARD OF LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES.

Americans do not want a declining standard of living in the United States; we want less poor people not more; we want less unemployment not more; we want less cars on the road not more; we do not want to grow in population, we want to grow in prosperity and wealth. In order to do that, there must be a balance between the economic wealth generation and size of the population.

It's not complicated. It's very simple. This is the United States. WE are the Americans. WE not only decide what happens here, WE control what happens here.

We are accountable to no one on our immigration policy. This is our country to decide what happens here, who comes to visit, who comes to stay, and we control that process as we see fit, because we are the Americans who own the United States of America.

I'm sorry that's not been clear. Hopefully it is now.

As an American, you should have already known that. You and I and 250,000,000 other AMERICANS OWN THE UNITED STATES. As Americans, WE answer to no one except ourselves with regards to "with whom we share it", if we should decide to share it at all.

Americans for Legal Immigration is a group committed to legal immigration and only in recent weeks when we learned about the alarming increase in legal immigration did we decide to work towards a Moratorium on Immigration until this whole mess can be studied and straightened out. I support a certain level of immigration under certain circumstances. Others will have different views. Our democratic process of INFORMED CONSENT decides the ultimate course on immigration in the future.

Illegal immigrants using fake social security numbers and filing tax returns are paying on average according to the Social Security Administration $1,000 per HOUSEHOLD in total federal tax annually. A shopkeeper in Manhattan, the most expensive city in the United States, declared $8,000 taxable income and paid $247 in total federal tax for 2004. An "accountant" who specializes in tax preparation for illegal aliens said his average customers in New York City declared $10,000 in taxable income. If you are good at math, I believe you will see the "problem" with the Myth that illegal aliens are "doing their part". They are lying on their income tax returns.

The Manhattan shopkeeper had a wife and 2 children in public schools and told the reporter he wanted to do his part. If he thinks he's doing his part filing false tax returns and paying $247 in federal tax, then he is a stupid illegal lying thieving immigrant. He is here illegally. He has lied to the United States about his income. He stole a shopkeeper's business opportunity from an American. He stole at least two American Children's resources in public education.

You can't survive in Manhattan as a single person on $8,000 a year, let alone support a family on it. This family is not making a contribution, they are stealing from our system. These are not good people. Why would anyone think so? They are illegal aliens and need to be deported.

Roberto if you are an American Citizen, I do not see how or why you or any other American Citizen would see it any other way.

Because that is the way it is today, the same as it has been for 231 years of yesterdays.

"A Nation Without Borders Is Not A Nation." Ronald Reagan

I've been gone most of the day so I missed most of this thread, but I want to go back to something Roberto said on the first page: "As the population increases our quality of living is rising."

That is just absolute POPPYCOCK, Roberto. Ask anybody who lived in America 30 years ago what the quality of life was like in their neighborhoods back then, as opposed to what its like NOW and you'll hear HORROR stories as to how drastically the quality of living has declined. Why do you think we're even on a site like this in the first place? Because we've seen with our own eyes how degraded our country has gotten in just 30 years, and we shudder to think what it'll be like 30 years FROM now.

Ask anyone who lived in Southern California what the quality of life was like back then before the immigrant hordes flooded into it. 30 years ago terms like "homelessness" and "crack gangs" and "driveby-shootings" and "serial killers" hadn't even been COINED yet (how soon people forget). And there was plenty of cheap, available housing everywhere.

I notice, Roberto, you didn't put any references to back up your claim of America's allegedly rising quality of living. And I can also tell you that nobody is making any glorious speeches regarding the allegedly "high quality of life" in the hideously-conjested and over-populated countries that these immigrants are fleeing from. Were you here in America 30 years ago, Roberto? I believe you said you were native-born American, but I seriously doubt that.

P.S. As a matter of fact, Roberto, my mother was a Native American Indian -- maiden name Gearwar from a tribe in New Hampshire. But so what. And whats with your crack about how I act as if I "own" America. Whats that supposed to mean? I'm an American citizen and I have more rights than non-American citizens. Are you implying otherwise? You're one more of those b.s. artists that comes to these sites playing your bait-and-switch debating tactics and making with the double-talk. You act like somehow we're deviating from some great American tradition of immigration. What a lying sack of manure you are. America has NEVER -- did you hear that, Roberto -- NEVER in its history advocated Open Borders and Mass Immigration. Why don't you take time out from spewing your gibberish on websites to pick up a history book. For most of the 20th century, America had an immigration quota that limited immigration to about 200,000 immigrants a year, as well as all kinds of restrictions as to precisely who we would or wouldn't let into the country. For better or worse THAT has been the American immigration tradition for most of our history. So spare us your phoney-baloney historical revisionism. ANd you still haven't responded to my comment that we are presently allowing a level of Mass Immigration that is UNPRECEDENTED IN HUMAN HISTORY. And yet you keep implying that somehow we have an obligation to be doing even more. Even making your phony speeches attesting to the alleged benefits of our population exploding out of control. What a b.s. artist you are, Roberto. We're trying to reign in our insane level of population growth for one reason: Unrestrained, never-ending growth is a sign of cancer, not a healthy organism. So the hell with your lame speeches attesting to the glory of our exploding population growth. You're either a moron or a liar, Roberto. Which is it?

Roberto,

Welcome to ALIPAC and thank you for phrasing your questions in a polite and thoughtful way. As you can see, many Americans are angry and they have every right to be angry considering the facts at hand.

Please realize that ALIPAC is made up of a lot of different people with different backgrounds and views and only some post here.

Despite our different opinions, concerns, backgrounds, party registration, ethnicity, etc... We all agree on one important thing.

Enforce our existing immigration laws NOW.

From what we can tell about 4 out of 5 Americans agree with us on that and our current laws call for the border to be secured, companies that hire illegals are to be fined, and illegal aliens should be deported especially when arrested or convicted of crimes.

America allows more people to LEGALLY immigrate each year than any other nation in the world over 1.2 million per year. We are also one of the very few countries that awards citizenship by being born on American soil.

Americans are free to travel many places around the world but other nations require us to legally immigrate or use passports. I doubt very seriously other nations would welcome Americans very long if 6-10 thousand of us started coming in without permission and coming to take whatever we could get our hands on through illegal conduct (that includes an illegal job) in defiance of the laws and the will of the public of other nations. That is exactly what is happening to America tonight as another 6-10 thousand wait for nightfall to break in illegally.

There are hundreds of rational and understandable reasons to be concerned about this issue from jobs lost, lost security, violent gangs, diseases that should be screened, the loss of tax dollars, the loss of tax services, the rule of law, etc..

We really should make a big list of all of the different reasons to be concerned about illegal immigration.

If you plan to visit or immigrate to America, we have every legal and constitutional right to say how many and who may come. And we have. This land belongs to the legal citizens of America known as "We the people of the United States of America" That sense of freedom and public ownership of the nation via Democraticly elected Reprsentatives and Constitutional law is a key component of what makes America a great place that others want to share. A lot of younger people and people from other nations do not understand that because they have not experienced it or been shown to value it in their personal experiences.

Illegal immigration is leading to an abuse of some of the most generous and freedom loving people on earth....Americans. In fact, Americans have set the global standards for freedom and generosity and civil rights and human rights.

The anger is coming from those that know we are being taken advantage of and that our strengths and our generosity is being exploited.

If you are simply a concerned citizen then I hope this helps. If you are a member of the press, please read our forum disclaimers and respect the fact that only ALIPAC executive officers, our board, and our printed official statements qualify as organizational statements.

The posts here belong to the individuals that chose to post.


William Gheen
President, ALIPAC

PS: If anyone is interested, we can build a list of 101 reasons to be concerned about illegal immigration in America this weekend.

PSS: Please forgive my typos, very tired.

Richard, that was an excellent post. Welcome!

Now, Roberto, I am not going to get into it with you. From what I have read, you have still not stated any facts for your allegations.

However, there are facts that will prove the negative impace of illegal mass immigration.
Fact...National security is in jeopary when you do not know who is in this country
Fact....diseases that we had pretty much eradicated in this country or never had before are being brought in or are on the rise due to...ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
Our very food supply and our childrens health are threatened by diseases due to ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
Fact....Hospitals and trauma centers are closing because they can no longer absorb the cost of treating ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who have no health insurance and use the emergency rooms as their family doctor
Fact....Drugs in massive quantities are being brought in over the border
Fact...Our childrens education is jeopardized because teachers have to spend more time with the non-english speaking students and the schools budgets are affected because they are having to hire special teachers to teach the non-english speaking students
Fact...identity theft is becoming an epidemic because of the demand for fraudulent documents fueled by ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
Fact...jobs that Americans (including LEGAL citizens) held and made a good living at ARE being taken over by ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! I blame the employers just as much for this!
Fact...A country cannot sustain massive numbers of immigrants in a short period of time. Our resources are being strained.

Need I go on? Oh, one more thing...what country do you know in South America or anywhere else for that matter would allow this? Answer, NONE


Lastly, we are expected to obey the laws and coming here ILLEGALY is breaking the law. I know first hand how the immigration process works and the visas, etc. So please do not insult my intelligence. I know that when someone immigrates (not to be confused with ILLEGALLY) they have to go through a health screening by an INS designated physician. If they do not have all of their immunization records, they have to have them all over again. I also know that they have to have a sponsor here that has to guarantee that they will be responsible for that individual financially for 10 YEARS to make sure that they do ot become a drain on the system.

I am an American. I do not consider myself better than anyone else. I do however abide by the law and love my country. I have children and by GOD I will fight to my last breath to ASSURE that they have a country, AMERICA to grow up in and are not exposed to diseases that they should not have been exposed to in the first place.

Ok, your turn, lets hear your facts.

Originally Posted by roberto

Ok,
First I would like to mention that I am not here to bash or to argue. I am not a supporter of "Open Borders", so to speak. I do believe, however that we are all created equal in God's eyes. Also, I am not an immigrant myself. My grandparents were immigrants from Europe. This is where my questions and point of view comes in...

Why do you feel so strongly about the illegal immigration issues in The US?
Is it because of security?
Is it because of jobs?
Or is it something else?

Sixx says: Security, jobs, and alot of "something" else. They are closing our hospitals, killing our law enforcement officers, bringing their nasty diseases into our nation, defiling our nation, raping our women. Get the picture

As far as security is concerned. As I mentioned, I am not an "Open Borders" advocate. I believe we should know who is coming in our country and should monitor for people who are considered threats to our country. I don't think good, hard working people should have to suffer for this, as many do.

Sixx says: These "good hardworking people" make up over 30% of our FEDERAL penitentiary inmates. Each state that these vomits are in has an equal proportion in the state pens. These same urchins taking jobs, declaring certain states as theirs, and we are sick of it.
You damn sure like an "Open Borders Advocate" or a plant from the Mexican state police, which would make you a criminal.


As far as jobs are concerned, I, personally, am 100% positive that I am a good enough worker at what I do. I am not at all concerned about losing my job to an immigrant or a non-immigrant. Why should we fear that? If you know that you are the best at what you do, you should not worry. That is my opinion. If someone comes along who is better than you, then you fell short of doing your part. If I was a business owner, I would higher the BEST person to fill the position. It is YOUR job to be the best at what you do.

Sixx says: Then good for you. How about the other citizens of this nation that may not have as good as education as you, which is questionable in and of itself. Do you only care about yourself? Typical little selfish snitt.

Here is a scenario:

You were born in the USA.
Jose was born in Peru.

Does that make you a better person than Jose?
No. It does not.

Sixx says: Oh yes it does. I am an AMERICAN CITIZEN. Jose is an illegal alien. He is guilty of breaking and entering and he is a criminal.

Jose has lived the same GOOD life that you have. He went to school. He works hard. He is married and has children. Jose's daughter ends up here in the USA (LEGALLY) She is now a US resident.

[color=red]Sixx says: How does he come to the U.S.? Does he stand in line like those fine "european" ancestors of yours, or did he slither across the desert?
His daughter "ends up here" not legally. You just said he was Peru. How in the hell does his daughter become legal? (Mod EDIT)


She is going to get married here in the US. Jose attempts to LEGALLY come to the US to attend his daughters wedding. He gets denied by the Embassy. (Sorry Jose, Try again in 6 months.. Denied again.)


Sixx says: Is this some kind of preverse joke? First he bought her here, which you say makes her legal. Why would he be denied by the immigration officials entry to the country to attend this wedding when he bought the kid here in the first place. Put down the crack pipe and back away

That scenario doesn't have to be a wedding. It could be that Jose's daughter is gravely ill in a hospital in the US and he is only trying to visit his daughter. But he is denied. I'm sure any father could sympathize with that. It is only human that a father would want to attend his daughters wedding or visit his sick family member in the hospital. But he can't. Why? Because he is a bad person? No. Because of where he is born. That is just not right.

(Mod Edit)


Also... How many people want to come here from other countries because there are no jobs in their country? All they want is an opportunity to make an honest living for themselves and their families. (Just as my grandparents did. And probably most of your ancestors as well.) And they are denied that. Is that right? Is that fair? I don't think so. Denying HONEST, GOOD people entrance here. You wouldn't like it if it was your family member. Is it ok to start turning the good people away now... Is it ok now because you and your relatives are already here? Is that why?

Sixx says: (Mod Edit) These "good people are CRIMINALS. My ancestors were SLAVES. Or, as you would undoubtly call it, "guest workers".

I know that most people here are for protecting the borders and all. As I mentioned, I agree with that. But, I also think if we are going to take a stance on something, we need to look into the bigger picture. Why are so many good, law abiding people denied access? It could be you, me, your parents or grandparents and so on... I mean think about it for a second. Most US Citizens can get up in the morning and go where ever they want to in the world without having to wait on a 6 month long waiting list and to go to an interview only to get denied. We can go where we want, when we want. And they don’t have that same right as us. Why? Because of where they were born? Is that ok? "Ok.. I can go to Mexico whenever I want!

Sixx says: So go to Mexico. TONIGHT. AND STAY THERE WITH THESE GOOD PEOPLE. MORON

And they better treat me like a king!" but " God forbid they come here and take OUR jobs away!" Sounds pretty elitist to me.

Now, I know this is probably falling on deaf ears, but just think about all the good people that are caught in this mess. Think about your rights and privileges to come and go as you please. Things that we usually take for granted. Then, put yourself in their shoes.

Sixx says: TAKE A HIKE

You say that you are Americans for Legal Immigration. But are you also Americans for DENYING the good people of the world LEGAL Immigration?

Sixx says: Does crossing our borders ILLEGALLY, which means without permission, soud like LEGAL immigration to you. I'll set an appointment for you with a shrink that I know.
Because that is the big picture. And that is what is happening.

Don't hold back! LOL

I understand fully where you are coming from. You are in the front lines where you see the full impact that illegal immigration is having in a way that very few of us see.

Roberto has no clue, or he knows full well what he is doing by baiting. He cannot deny the facts. Why waste your breath? The facts are what matters. They cannot be denied. We all know that.

Just another antagonist. See it for what it is. Getting a rise is what he wants, and if that is not why, then he is just another fool that spouts what he hears in the MSM.

Either way, is it worth letting him get to you? No. We know the truth and the facts, and they cannot change them!