Thread: FairTax and Trade

Originally Posted by Judy

Who said the FairTax "protects" businesses?

You did: "You would want to annoy every business and entrepreneur in America and increase their costs to increase the margin on the expense you created for them and pass that along to the next one who will do the same thing and the next one and the next one and the next one, all called compounding, until it gets to the store and you pay them all back with no rebate for your necessities for all their expense, all their trouble, all their margins, all their profit on the expense you created for them." [Emphasis added]. You are alluding that your FairTax would take these away!

Originally Posted by Judy

The FairTax eliminates the present compounding of the income tax.

What "compounding"? Does that mean businesses will not have to pay taxes on their profits? Currently, business can get tax credits for purchases and depreciate the taxes on their purchases. This would suddenly make them pay up front. That might bring the economy to a halt.

Originally Posted by Judy

No, the FairTax does not "fix" federal tax paid by consumers and has never claimed it does, no one has, certainly not me.

So, at the whim of Congress, that proposed 23% rate could become 30% next year?

Originally Posted by Judy

In fact, the FairTax legislation is very specific that Congress is to review the 8.09% earmarked for Social Security and Medicare every two years to ensure that this amount is sufficient to fund the SS Trust Fund, so it's quite obvious from the legislation that from time to time the FairTax rate will change to ensure robust funding of Social Security and Medicare.

Therefore, just like with our current system, if Congress decides to double the budget, they are free to double the FairTax to cover it.

Originally Posted by Judy

Any Congress with a cooperating President can also raise or lower the 14.91 General Revenue portion of the FairTax, or make any other adjustment they see fit to do. The difference is you aren't forced to pay it if they raise it.

HOW CAN THAT POSSIBLY BE? If they raise the rate of the FairTax, unless you don't buy anything, YOU WILL PAY THE INCREASED TAX!

Originally Posted by Judy

You decide how much FairTax you pay by your spending choices, a choice you don't have with a mandatory income tax.

Really? I can choose to work less to reduce my tax under the Income Tax system. That would lower my standard of living. Reducing my spending to avoid the higher FairTax rate would likewise reduce my standard of living! MORE SPIN!

Originally Posted by Judy

johnwk wrote:

Fifth Column Republicans developed the alleged fairtax, just like Fifth Column Democrats got the 16th Amendment added to our Constitution. Keep in mind those who developed the alleged fair tax made sure it keeps alive Congress' power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains and other incomes . . . it does not get rid of this kind of tax as you allege.

JWK

Yes it does get rid of the income tax, all of it, 100%.

Judy, we already went over this in POST NO. 30 I wrote:

Judy, you are not being honest in saying that.

If the alleged fairtax were passed, is it not true that Congress can still lay and collect excise taxes calculated from profits and gains, such as the Corporate Excise tax of 1909?

Additionally, is it not true that ordinary people who sell the property they have in their labor, will be subject to paying a tax to government based on the dollar amount of each sale?


The fact is, the answer to both question is yes, and that means people and corporations will still be subject to income based taxes which are taxes calculated from money received.


JWK

Originally Posted by Judy

You don't have to work to get your income tax handouts. I mean look at you. You don't work and you get yours. You're silly.

My retirement money doesn't come from the Income Tax System, silly!

Originally Posted by Judy

Who said the FairTax "protects" businesses? It eliminates all federal income based taxes on businesses and individuals. It doesn't change excise taxes, ....

You are correct that the alleged fairtax does not change Congress' power to lay and collect excise taxes. But you are in error when you say the alleged fairtax eliminates all federal income based taxes on businesses and individuals. See the Flint vs Stone Tracy case in which the Court upheld the Corporate Excise tax of 1909 which was a tax calculated from corporate profits and gains.

Call the tax what you will, but it still was a tax based upon income.

If it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it must be a duck, Judy!


Why are you making stuff up, Judy?



JWK

Originally Posted by johnwk

Judy, we already went over this in POST NO. 30 I wrote:

Judy, you are not being honest in saying that.

If the alleged fairtax were passed, is it not true that Congress can still lay and collect excise taxes calculated from profits and gains, such as the Corporate Excise tax of 1909?

Additionally, is it not true that ordinary people who sell the property they have in their labor, will be subject to paying a tax to government based on the dollar amount of each sale?


The fact is, the answer to both question is yes, and that means people and corporations will still be subject to income based taxes which are taxes calculated from money received.


JWK

Yes, I am being honest. You are the one who is dishonest. The 16th Amendment creates the opportunity for the government to pass an income tax law. The 16th Amendment does not create an income tax law and it does not create an income tax. We have the right to vote in this country, that doesn't mean you vote. We have the right to worship, but that doesn't mean we go to church. We have the right to protest, but that doesn't we do. We have free speech in this country, but it does not mean we speak out. Same thing. Having the right to pass an income tax law is very different than passing an income tax law. If you do not understand that important difference, then you should never discuss the US Constitution.

Yes, if the Congress passes the FairTax, the government will continue to collect Excise Taxes including the corporate excise tax and any other excise tax it has now or chooses to charge and collect in the future. That authority along with tariffs, imposts and duties are original Constitutional taxing authorities of the federal government, and have nothing to do with the 16th Amendment or the FairTax.

No, the laborer is not paying the FairTax, the retail customers are paying the FairTax. The FairTax a retailer collects for the government belongs to the US government the instant it changes hands, less the collection fee. It is not your money, it is not paid from your money, it is a tax from the day you include it in your price, sell the product or service and take the money from the customer until you send it off to the state or the feds direct if your state opts out of collecting from the retailers in their state. You're like a paid escrow agent for the government, same as the States who opt to collect up from their retailers. Do you know what an escrow agent is?

No, Excise Taxes are not income taxes, but they are taxes from money received, that's why I know what you're up to with your 32 words, you are doing far more with your 32 words than repealing the 16th Amendment to repeal the authority of the income tax. I saw through that years ago Johnwk which is why I oppose your plan and your 32 words. As I've told you before, there is no greater proven tyranny in this country than the tyranny imposed by the States on our people.

Is somebody paying you to advertise the unfair tax, Judy? Either you have way too much free time on your hands or you are somehow profiting from your advertising efforts.

Originally Posted by Judy

Yes, I am being honest.

No, Judy, you are not being honest. You specifically stated the alleged "FairTax" . . .eliminates all federal income based taxes on businesses and individuals."

Contrary to you assertion, if the alleged fairtax were passed, Congress may still lay and collect an income based tax such as the Corporate excise tax of 1909.

See: FLINT v. STONE TRACY CO.,

This tax, it is expressly stated, is to be equivalent to 1 per centum of the entire net income over and above $5,000 received from all sources during the year,-this is the measure of the tax explicitly adopted by the statute. The income is not limited to such as is received from property used in the business, strictly speaking, but is expressly declared to be upon the entire net income above $5,000 from all sources, excluding the amounts received as dividends on stock in other corporations, joint stock companies or associations, or insurance companies also subject to the tax. In other words, the tax is imposed upon the doing of business of the character described, and the measure of the tax is to be income, with the deduction stated, received not only from property used in business, but from every source.

Judy, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . it must be a duck. The alleged "fairtax" does not eliminate all federal income based taxes as you allege.


Why are you making stuff up?

JWK

I do it for fun. I love exposing the stupidity of the old farts that created this mess in our country. A long time ago when I was in college, our assignment was to devise an alternative tax system to the individual income tax. The assignment didn't deal with replacing the payroll tax, just the other income-based taxes. My paper presented a national retail sales tax of 7% on all retail goods and service including used goods. The professor liked it so much he gave me an A + and read it to the class. There were people like you in the class who turned and snarled "what about my Daddy's hotel and meal expenses he incurs when he's on the road as a salesman?" To which I replied, "What about them? He doesn't pay any tax so there's no tax to deduct his expenses from, so what about them?" It was like looking into the eyes of a dead person, they had no comprehension of tax at all.

My professor asked my permission to take my paper and present to a group of tax experts and economists struggling with trying to find an alternative for the income tax because they knew even then the income tax was killing our country if it wasn't dealt with.

The snag ever since until the FairTax has been how to effectively and economically deal with the "necessities of life" so the tax wouldn't be regressive and overly burdensome on the poor. So 70,000 lost factories and $22 trillion in debt later, it's still the snag. People are addicted to the income tax, and I have no earthly idea why other than they think they're getting something for free at someone else's expense.

That's why some people hate the FairTax, it grinds all that to a halt, no one is special, everyone who is a citizen or a legal resident is treated the same, it's completely egalitarian. People like me love that about the FairTax, but people like you, jtdc and Johnwk hate it. That's just the way it is. The FairTax doesn't need any of you to pass. It needs a few more Republicans in Congress and Donald Trump. We'll see how things work out in the mid-terms.

Originally Posted by johnwk

No, Judy, you are not being honest. You specifically stated the alleged "FairTax" . . .eliminates all federal income based taxes on businesses and individuals."

Contrary to you assertion, if the alleged fairtax were passed, Congress may still lay and collect an income based tax such as the Corporate excise tax of 1909.

See: FLINT v. STONE TRACY CO.,

This tax, it is expressly stated, is to be equivalent to 1 per centum of the entire net income over and above $5,000 received from all sources during the year,-this is the measure of the tax explicitly adopted by the statute. The income is not limited to such as is received from property used in the business, strictly speaking, but is expressly declared to be upon the entire net income above $5,000 from all sources, excluding the amounts received as dividends on stock in other corporations, joint stock companies or associations, or insurance companies also subject to the tax. In other words, the tax is imposed upon the doing of business of the character described, and the measure of the tax is to be income, with the deduction stated, received not only from property used in business, but from every source.

Judy, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . it must be a duck. The alleged "fairtax" does not eliminate all federal income based taxes as you allege.


Why are you making stuff up?

JWK

If the Excise Tax is an income tax, then the income tax was always Constitutional and the 16th Amendment a frivolous waste of time.

Suit yourself, call it whatever you want, like I said, my work here is finished.

Originally Posted by Judy

The 16th Amendment creates the opportunity for the government to pass an income tax law. The 16th Amendment does not create an income tax law and it does not create an income tax.

Have you ever heard the saying "give someone an inch and they'll take a mile"?

Originally Posted by Judy

We have the right to vote in this country, that doesn't mean you vote.

But you can't vote down the budget by Congress!

Originally Posted by Judy

Having the right to pass an income tax law is very different than passing an income tax law.

You apparently don't understand that if you don't have the right to pass an income tax law, you can't pass an income tax law!

Originally Posted by Judy

Yes, if the Congress passes the FairTax, the government will continue to collect Excise Taxes including the corporate excise tax and any other excise tax it has now or chooses to charge and collect in the future. That authority along with tariffs, imposts and duties are original Constitutional taxing authorities of the federal government, and have nothing to do with the 16th Amendment or the FairTax.

So, again, it was spin to claim the repealing the 16th Amendment would hurt the country!

Originally Posted by Judy

No, the laborer is not paying the FairTax, the retail customers are paying the FairTax.

So "laborers" are not "consumers"?

Originally Posted by Judy

It is not your money, it is not paid from your money, it is a tax from the day you include it in your price, sell the product or service and take the money from the customer until you send it off to the state or the feds direct if your state opts out of collecting from the retailers in their state.

It's all "your money"! And the retailer doesn't not include it in the price of the product or service. It is added to that price at the time of the sale.

Originally Posted by Judy

No, Excise Taxes are not income taxes, but they are taxes from money received

And who gets that money? The federal government!