Thread: FairTax and Trade

Originally Posted by johnwk

It's not only one set of paperwork for another. Under the alleged fairtax ordinary working people who sell the property each has in their own labor must file fairtax returns twelve freaken times a year, under a penalty of perjury. And that doesn't even include any excise taxes imposed upon them which are calculated from profits, gains and other incomes which also require additional paper work.


The very intention of the alleged fairtax is to create two new taxes, two new tax collecting agencies, keep alive Congress' power to lay and collect income based taxes while tightening the iron fist of our federal government around the necks of the American people and their businesses.


JWK

Oh quit whining and grow a pair. You pay your utility bill every month, you pay your rent or mortgage every month, you pay insurance every month, you pay your phone, internet and cable bill every month, so you can pay the FairTax you collected on your "services" every month so the government who has it's bills every month doesn't have to borrow money waiting over a year for you to file an income tax return and trickle in your income and self-employment tax you owe. The FairTax will save the government billions of dollars a year in interest because the FairTax is collected and paid monthly.

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by johnwk

You nailed it! It's a massive redistribution of wealth.


The fact is, this would be a massive redistribution program under which those who are not working and are already on the public dole would receive a monthly bonus government check. Heck, even gangsters who steal other people’s property, drug dealers and those not gainfully employed are eligible to received the monthly government bonus check which would be taxed away from the productive and employed members of society!


The clowns behind the alleged fairtax are even proud to admit it's a progressive idea!

"The FairTax provides a progressive program called a prebate. This gives every legal resident household an “advance refund” at the beginning of each month so that purchases made up to the poverty level are tax-free. The prebate prevents an unfair burden on low-income families."


JWK

LOL!! One minute you're howling quotes from Alexander Hamilton and other Federalist Papers contirubutors on the evil of taxing "necessities of life" and the "fruits of one's labor", and the next you're calling them "clowns" and accusing them of being "progressive" as if that's a bad word. .

There you go again misrepresenting what I have posted. I never called the Founders clowns. Those are your words.

Unlike our Founders who intended each article to be selected for a specific tax, and not taxing the necessities of life, the alleged fairtax does tax the necessities of life and then creates a family consumption allowance to allow poor people a rationed supply of tax free necessities, which makes them dependent upon government for their necessities and encourages them to vote for Fifth Column socialist clowns who created the socialist friendly fairtax which offers free government cheese.

Now, let us now review our founders true intentions with regard to taxing consumption.



Hamilton stresses in Federalist No 21 regarding taxes on articles of consumption:


“There is no method of steering clear of this inconvenience, but by authorizing the national government to raise its own revenues in its own way. Imposts, excises, and, in general, all duties upon articles of consumption, may be compared to a fluid, which will, in time, find its level with the means of paying them. The amount to be contributed by each citizen will in a degree be at his own option, and can be regulated by an attention to his resources. The rich may be extravagant, the poor can be frugal; and private oppression may always be avoided by a judicious selection of objects proper for such impositions. If inequalities should arise in some States from duties on particular objects, these will, in all probability, be counter balanced by proportional inequalities in other States, from the duties on other objects. In the course of time and things, an equilibrium, as far as it is attainable in so complicated a subject, will be established everywhere. Or, if inequalities should still exist, they would neither be so great in their degree, so uniform in their operation, nor so odious in their appearance, as those which would necessarily spring from quotas, upon any scale that can possibly be devised.


It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit; which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed, that is, an extension of the revenue. When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty, that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four .'' If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them.”





For confirmation on how our founders intended to tax consumption here is a link to our countries first revenue raising act An Act for laying a Duty on Goods, Wares and Merchandise imported into the United States. Note how each article is selected and a specific amount of tax is laid upon the article selected.


Why must you make stuff up when promoting the alleged fairtax? The fact is, the alleged fairtax, an across the board tax on consumption removes the protections our founders intended by requiring each article to be selected and a specific amount of tax to be determine on each article selected. Why do you want to remove the protections intended by our founders?



JWK



“…a national revenue must be obtained; but the system must be such a one, that, while it secures the object of revenue it shall not be oppressive to our constituents.”___ ___Madison, during the creation of our Nation’s first revenue raising Act

You need to write more clearly then, because you're calling FairTax proponents socialists and progressives because of a method to exempt federal sales tax on necessities of life and fruits of the labor, which is exactly what the founders you quote were trying to do. When the founders were alive, the US had little to no production, we had virtually no businesses or manufacturing, we had only farmers, services and shop-keepers who for the most part used slavery and indentured servants for their labor, so spare me your founders talk. The founders got a lot of things right, but taxation and labor weren't two of them, neither was voting.

Americans today have several tasks at hand. One is to raise enough revenue to support our government on an annual basis without borrowing more debt. Two is to protect our domestic companies, producers, businesses and workers against excess foreign imports. Three is to simplify through a uniform system, the manner in which this revenue is raised without theft, mandates and oppression. The FairTax does all three plus a lot more.

This thread was started to discuss trade. Today under the present system, American companies pay tons of taxes that foreign producers do not pay. Those goods come in either free of tariffs or at very low tariffs which do not compare with the much higher domestic tax obligations of American producers and sellers creating a huge disadvantage for US companies. The FairTax solves that taxing all products and services the same, domestic and foreign, sold in the US and does so without international disputes, conflicts, WTO's or trade agreements.

In addition, because Americans including all legal American workers are eligible for an offset of FairTax on necessities up to an amount, this allows them tax-free spending up to that amount. Illegal aliens are not eligible, therefore, they are at a 23% disadvantage in trying to undercut American Workers by offering to work at lower wages. So instead of handing out refund checks and EITC tax welfare and child care credits and on and on and on through the income tax code to illegal aliens, they receive none of this PLUS have to pay full FairTaxes on every dime they spend in this country. And again, this achieved through the FairTax without further legislation or conflict. This means a lot to fighting illegal immigration. To show the simple math, an American worker who is paid $10 an hour, goes home with the $10 (less any state income tax) plus a Rebate of 23% up to the household consumption allowance, which for most families will raise that $10 of disposable expendable income to $12.50. The illegal alien if willing to work and be hired for the same $10 who is not eligible for the Rebate, goes home with $7.70 an hour. That's almost a $5 an hour spread before they try to undercut American workers and offer to work for less. the savings to an employer has to be rather sizable or they aren't going to risk hiring illegal aliens, so the FairTax with the Rebate not only protects our workers against the scourge of illegal immigration, it goes a long ways towards keeping our employers on the straight and narrow.

Whether someone supports the FairTax or not depends on what their objectives are. I don't see your objectives to be helping to fix our country. I see your objectives to be getting someone else to pay more so you don't have to do any reports on part time retail activity. That strikes me as completely senseless when Americans have so many big problems to solve and this simple new tax system called the FairTax helps US solve so many of them, without Congress, trade agreements, confrontations or mandates.

Originally Posted by Judy

No, the FairTax doesn't pay for our necessities or a "family consumption allowance".

Then where does the money for the "family consumption allowance" come from?

Originally Posted by Judy

It just pays for the tax on necessities determined by the "family consumption allowance"

It pays for whatever you purchase with it, plus tax!

Originally Posted by Judy

Good Gawd Man, what kind of mind can distort something as simple as a sales tax exclusion for necessities. No it doesn't "compound" at all. The FairTax is charged at the final point of sale, one time, at the end of the line.

But pays the money used to pay the FairTax on the purchase!

Originally Posted by Judy

For example, the annual consumption allowance for an adult is $11,770 a year. The annual rebate is $2,707 or 23% of $11,770. It's paid monthly at 1/12 of $2,707 in the amount of $226 a month to pay the tax. If you have a child it's another $81 a month for a total of $305 a month to pay the tax.

And if you don't earn that $11770, your are on the public dole!

Originally Posted by Judy

I think I'm beginning to understand why you never got one of your inventions to market by yourself.

I'm not a gambler!

Originally Posted by Judy

You need to write more clearly then, because you're calling FairTax proponents socialists and progressives because of a method to exempt federal sales tax on necessities of life . . .

Talk about clarity, once again you make stuff up and misrepresent what I have posted and what the alleged fairtax does.


Contrary to you above assertion, that I’m calling “FairTax proponents socialists and progressives”, my words were more specific and directed at “Fifth Column socialist clowns who created the socialist friendly fairtax which offers free government cheese.”

Additionally, the alleged fairtax does not exempt the 23 percent sales tax on necessities of life as you falsely assert. The necessities of life are taxed just as other consumer articles are taxed under the alleged fairtax.

What the socialist friendly fairtax does is create a new socialist entitlement called the ”Family Consumption Allowance” LINK

“SEC. 301. Family consumption allowance.”

“Each qualified family shall be eligible to receive a sales tax rebate each month. The sales tax rebate shall be in an amount equal to the product of—
“(1) the rate of tax imposed by section 101, and
“(2) the monthly poverty level.”


As we can all see, the “family consumption allowance” is a monthly entitlement check sent to every qualified household which they may spend as they please. The monthly entitlement check’s alleged intention, as expressed at fairtax.org, is to prevent “an unfair burden on low-income-families” so they may purchase a rationed supply of “tax-free” purchases, presumably the necessities of life which will have a 23 percent tax added to their cost under the alleged fairtax.

Whether intentional or not, and I believe it is intentional, the family consumption allowance does make “low-income-families” dependent upon our federal government for monthly check to pay for a rationed supply of “tax-free” purchases which in turn encourages these families to vote for socialists who promise to increase the allowance.

We were warned against this very thing in the Federalist Papers? A POWER OVER A MAN's SUBSISTENCE AMOUNTS TO A POWER OVER HIS WILL ____ Hamilton, No. 79 Federalist Papers

In contrast to the alleged fairtax which does tax the necessities of life, our founder’s method to avoid oppressing the poor while taxing articles of consumption, was to exempt articles of necessity from taxation by a “judicious selection of objects proper for such impositions”. See FEDERALIST NO. 21


“There is no method of steering clear of this inconvenience, but by authorizing the national government to raise its own revenues in its own way. Imposts, excises, and, in general, all duties upon articles of consumption, may be compared to a fluid, which will, in time, find its level with the means of paying them. The amount to be contributed by each citizen will in a degree be at his own option, and can be regulated by an attention to his resources. The rich may be extravagant, the poor can be frugal; and private oppression may always be avoided by a judicious selection of objects proper for such impositions. If inequalities should arise in some States from duties on particular objects, these will, in all probability, be counter balanced by proportional inequalities in other States, from the duties on other objects. In the course of time and things, an equilibrium, as far as it is attainable in so complicated a subject, will be established everywhere. Or, if inequalities should still exist, they would neither be so great in their degree, so uniform in their operation, nor so odious in their appearance, as those which would necessarily spring from quotas, upon any scale that can possibly be devised.


It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit; which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed, that is, an extension of the revenue. When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty, that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four .'' If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them.”





For confirmation on how our founders intended to tax consumption here is a link to our countries first revenue raising act An Act for laying a Duty on Goods, Wares and Merchandise imported into the United States. Note how each article is selected and a specific amount of tax is laid upon the article selected.



Now, Judy, instead of obfuscating, misdirecting and employing a number of stupid debating tricks, and rambling on and on as you did in your last post, how about discussing the obvious consequences attached to the “family consumption allowance”, which all thinking people would agree creates a dangerous voting block dependent upon government for a monthly subsistence check.

JWK


A nation of people made dependent upon government for their subsistence, is a nation doomed to being enslaved by the iron fist which feeds them.

Originally Posted by Judy

Yes, that is right, they are retail entities when they do that. A retail entity can be an individual, but they are not required to file because they are an individual like one is required to file as an individual under the individual income tax code, they are filing FairTax reports because they collect FairTax as a retail entity serving consumers and they both are paid a nice fee for their service.

And if they sell their car or Koolaide, they are a retail entity!

Originally Posted by Judy

Joe goes home every month with all his paychecks from work, free from federal income tax, no withholding tax for personal income tax or payroll tax has been withheld, no employer had to file a monthly withholding report on him, so everyone wins.

That is a good selling point. If only that were the whole FairTax! But it is only one part.

Originally Posted by Judy

Progressives are Republicans who moved our country forward, freed the slaves, established civil rights, busted the monopolies, protected workers, and protected our trade to protect our businesses and manufacturers to improve our standard of living in the US.

So you are a liberal after all. Progressives are people who move to the Democrat party!

Originally Posted by Judy

It redistributes wealth from foreign producers back to American manufacturers, from illegal aliens back to American Workers, and from those who didn't earn it, back to those who did.

I still don't see how it can do that! Tariffs and excises can do that, but a sales tax only raises the cost of everything!

=Judy]It's fabulous!!!!

You must have been a cheerleader!

Originally Posted by Judy

You pay your utility bill every month, you pay your rent or mortgage every month, you pay insurance every month, you pay your phone, internet and cable bill every month, so you can pay the FairTax you collected on your "services" every month so the government who has it's bills every month doesn't have to borrow money waiting over a year for you to file an income tax return and trickle in your income and self-employment tax you owe.

But Income tax only needs to be filed once a year!

Originally Posted by Judy

The FairTax will save the government billions of dollars a year in interest because the FairTax is collected and paid monthly.

They would just find a new way to spend it!

Originally Posted by Judy

Americans today have several tasks at hand. One is to raise enough revenue to support our government on an annual basis without borrowing more debt.

Putting the cart ahead of the horse. You are definitely a liberal! It is our duty to finance our government better so they can waste more of our money on programs they want, like providing school, medical and many other benefits to illegal aliens? We elect them to manage our country's finances, but we have no control over how they spend it. Most of us have to live within a budget. They don't and vote themselves a raise which telling us to cut back as they raise our tax rates.

Originally Posted by Judy

Two is to protect our domestic companies, producers, businesses and workers against excess foreign imports.

And that is what tariffs are for, not a sales tax.

Originally Posted by Judy

Three is to simplify through a uniform system, the manner in which this revenue is raised without theft, mandates and oppression.

Post card Income Tax!

Originally Posted by Judy

This thread was started to discuss trade.

That may be what the title indicates, but your posts have been solely a sales pitch for the FairTax!

Originally Posted by Judy

Today under the present system, American companies pay tons of taxes that foreign producers do not pay. Those goods come in either free of tariffs or at very low tariffs which do not compare with the much higher domestic tax obligations of American producers and sellers creating a huge disadvantage for US companies.

That is because of the rates of the tariffs, not Income Tax. Canada, "our friend", uses a 270% tariff on imported dairy products. We have nothing that high. Income Tax and Sales Tax will not correct that. A higher price because of a high tariff will result in a higher sales tax. The Income Tax system offers deductions to try to compensate for those high tariffs.

Originally Posted by Judy

The FairTax solves that taxing all products and services the same, domestic and foreign, sold in the US and does so without international disputes, conflicts, WTO's or trade agreements.

WRONG! The FairTax will add more to the cost as the price goes up!

Originally Posted by Judy

In addition, because Americans including all legal American workers are eligible for an offset of FairTax on necessities up to an amount, this allows them tax-free spending up to that amount. Illegal aliens are not eligible, therefore, they are at a 23% disadvantage in trying to undercut American Workers by offering to work at lower wages.

What a fantasy! So you believe that illegal aliens looking to make thousands of dollars per month won't come because they will have to pay $305 more per month than legal persons?

Originally Posted by Judy

I see your objectives to be getting someone else to pay more so you don't have to do any reports on part time retail activity.

In a way that's true. I believe in a graduated tax system, which the FairTax is not!

Originally Posted by jtdc

Then where does the money for the "family consumption allowance" come from?

It pays for whatever you purchase with it, plus tax!

But pays the money used to pay the FairTax on the purchase!

And if you don't earn that $11770, your are on the public dole!

I'm not a gambler!

The money comes from the FairTaxes you pay when you make purchases and consume. If you buy a television from a store for $500 and they give you a $100 Rebate, where does that money for the Rebate come from? It comes from the $500 you paid the store, they're just refunding you the money you paid them. It's the same thing with the Rebate on the FairTax except you should receive the Rebate first of the month so you have it hand to pay the FairTax on your monthly expenses up to the allowance amount.

No, you still don't understand. The Rebate doesn't pay for the $11,770, it only pays for the 23% FairTax on that amount which is $2,707 a year or $236 a month. No one gets the family consumption allowance, only the TAX on it, which is the same as the tax you pay when you make the purchases. It doesn't matter whether you pay for your stuff with income, savings, credit, gifts, assistance, Social Security, Disability, food stamps, SSI, WIC, TANF, insurance, Medicaid, family, spouse, doesn't matter. The FairTax taxes spending whatever the source of the money or credit or EBT, and the Rebate just offsets the FairTax you would pay on your consumption of new goods and services up to the allowance.

No, the Rebate only applies to the Tax, not the whole spending amount. You don't receive $11,770 in Rebate, you only receive 23% of that amount in Rebate which is $2,707 a year or $236 a month.