Thread: my personal reply to Chicano

chicano:

As I asked on your original - earlier thread - why shouldn't we adopt Mexico's immigration laws?

Mexico’s Immigration Law: Let’s Try It Here at Home
by J. Michael Wailer
Posted May 08, 2006

Mexico has a radical idea for a rational immigration policy that most Americans would love. However, Mexican officials haven’t been sharing that idea with us as they press for our Congress to adopt the McCain-Kennedy immigration reform bill.

That’s too bad, because Mexico, which annually deports more illegal aliens than the United States does, has much to teach us about how it handles the immigration issue. Under Mexican law, it is a felony to be an illegal alien in Mexico.

At a time when the Supreme Court and many politicians seek to bring American law in line with foreign legal norms, it’s noteworthy that nobody has argued that the U.S. look at how Mexico deals with immigration and what it might teach us about how best to solve our illegal immigration problem. Mexico has a single, streamlined law that ensures that foreign visitors and immigrants are:

• in the country legally;

• have the means to sustain themselves economically;

• not destined to be burdens on society;

• of economic and social benefit to society;

• of good character and have no criminal records; and

• contributors to the general well-being of the nation. The law also ensures that:

• immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor;

• foreign visitors do not violate their visa status;

• foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country’s internal politics;

• foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported;

• foreign visitors violating the terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported;

• those who aid in illegal immigration will be sent to prison.

Who could disagree with such a law? It makes perfect sense. The Mexican constitution strictly defines the rights of citizens -- and the denial of many fundamental rights to non-citizens, illegal and illegal. Under the constitution, the Ley General de PoblaciOn, or General Law on Population, spells out specifically the country’s immigration policy.

It is an interesting law -- and one that should cause us all to ask, Why is our great southern neighbor pushing us to water down our own immigration laws and policies, when its own immigration restrictions are the toughest on the continent? If a felony is a crime punishable by more than one year in prison, then Mexican law makes it a felony to be an illegal alien in Mexico.

If the United States adopted such statutes, Mexico no doubt would denounce it as a manifestation of American racism and bigotry.

We looked at the immigration provisions of the Mexican constitution. [1] Now let’s look at Mexico’s main immigration law.

Mexico welcomes only foreigners who will be useful to Mexican society:

• Foreigners are admitted into Mexico “according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress.” (Article 32)

• Immigration officials must “ensure” that “immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance” and for their dependents. (Article 34)

• Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets “the equilibrium of the national demographics,” when foreigners are deemed detrimental to “economic or national interests,” when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken Mexican laws, and when “they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy.” (Article 37)

• The Secretary of Governance may “suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when he determines it to be in the national interest.” (Article 3Cool

Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country:

• Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)

• A National Population Registry keeps track of “every single individual who comprises the population of the country,” and verifies each individual’s identity. (Articles 85 and 86)

• A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91).

Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:

• Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)

• Foreigners who sign government documents “with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses” are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)

Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:

• Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117)

• Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 11

• Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico -- such as working with out a permit -- can also be imprisoned.

Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,

• “A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally.” (Article 123)

• Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from Mexico instead of being imprisoned.
(Article 125)

• Foreigners who “attempt against national sovereignty or security” will be deported. (Article 126) Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:

• A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)

• Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)

All of the above runs contrary to what Mexican leaders are demanding of the United States. The stark contrast between Mexico’s immigration practices versus its American immigration preachings is telling. It gives a clear picture of the Mexican government’s agenda: to have a one-way immigration relationship with the United States.

Let’s call Mexico’s bluff on its unwarranted interference in U.S. immigration policy. Let’s propose, just to make a point, that the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) member nations standardize their immigration laws by using Mexico’s own law as a model.

This article was first posted at CenterforSecurityPolicy.org.



1. “Mexico’s Glass House,” Center for Security Policy Occasional Paper, April 3, 2006.

Wow, thanks for posting that! Mexico has some good immigration law there. We should immitate it in the USA!!

Oops, I almost forgot, that wouldn't help because senor jorge bush wouldn't enforce it anyway.

Originally Posted by chicano

Dragonfly, you seem to have misunderstood once again what I am advocating. I have repeatedly stated that I believe those people that come to this country SHOULD learn to speak English. But there is no way in hell that I believe they should give up their identity. You can call me hispanic, mexican american, chicano, latino, and they all describe who I really am. Although I am an American, I was raised differently so I have different customs, foods, holidays, and know a different language. If I like mexican food, mexican music, soccer, and speak spanish with family and friends, then what is the problem? Am I suppose to listen to country music and watch baseball so that I can "assimilate?" The reason I support the idea that all people living here should learn english is because english would be what unites us all as americans, regardless of race, color, background, religion, whatever. But you, in my opinion, should not disregard what is valueable to you just so you can "fit in."

Also, you say either you are an American citizen or not, and if not you should be deported. Well, you are wrong. My parents are residents and they will not be deported if madness prevails and the mass deportations begin.

Finally, I have another question for all. It seems that no matter what you say, or no matter what I say, our minds will not be changed a bit. You all, for the most part believe in deportations while I believe in an opportunity. So then what the hell do you want to happen? Do you really want 8-20 million people to become felons and get deported, and if not, then what is your "solution?"

Chicano, what you keep glossing over is the FACT that these people BROKE THE LAW to come here. Worse yet, in my estimation, is that they screwed over real immigrants who go through the proper channels by effectively cutting in line ahead of them. They take resources that are not theirs to take (medical, food stamps, etc.), which also makes them thieves.

So it appears to me that you are defending people who:

a. have no respect for the law,

b. have no respect for the honest individuals who invest many years and much money immigrating legally,

c. and are thieves who steal the fruits of other people's labors.

Are these the people you are defending? It appears to me that you are defending them simply because of your clannish support for people of your own race, because the fact that they "are hard workers" or whatever other spurious defenses you have provided cannot forgive their lack of respect for our laws and borders and for those who respect our laws and immigrate legally, nor can it forgive their theft of our tax dollars or illegal voting in our elections when many of them are not willing to give up their citizenship and allegiance to a foreign nation.

I am mostly English and Irish, but I don't defend any Irishman or Englishman who tries to immigrate illegally, and I would be as outraged at a European coming over here illegally and sucking up our taxpayer paid for services as I am about the throngs of Hispanics doing the same. The problem is that I don't see Englishmen, Irishmen, Frenchmen, Germans, Norwegians, or anyone else so flagrantly violating our laws and abusing our openness and hospitality.

Now, I will answer your question. First off, I want those caught committing crimes, driving without insurance, etc., to be prosecuted and/or deported. Realizing that it is logistically unfeasible to literally deport the full volume of the illegals, I am more interested in cutting off the supply of work and services. I think that we need to prosecute and fine the crap out of employers who hire illegals, either knowingly or unwittingly. Maybe we could cut those who we can't prove knew their employees were illegal a little slack by giving them one free pass, but then the fine for a second violation should be the same as for a second violation of one who could be proved to have knowingly hired illegals, and those repeat offenses should have exponentially escalating fines and punishment, including prison time for multiple offenses.

We should also cut all but the most basic of emergency services to illegals, and make theft of services such as food stamps cause for immediate deportation and confiscation of all accounts and assets. We should make illegal voting a felony punishable by hard time. In that environment, we would not have to deport 20 million people because there would be no reason for them to stay.

I am mostly English and Irish, but I don't defend any Irishman or Englishman who tries to immigrate illegally, and I would be as outraged at a European coming over here illegally and sucking up our taxpayer paid for services as I am about the throngs of Hispanics doing the same. The problem is that I don't see Englishmen, Irishmen, Frenchmen, Germans, Norwegians, or anyone else so flagrantly violating our laws and abusing our openness and hospitality.

Amen Brother Crocket

Dixie

Chicano,

Originally Posted by patbrunz

Originally Posted by chicano

I must admit that supporting my stand is a bit harder than I thought it would be. . .

No offense intended, but that is because it is an indefensible position due to the fact that it is contrary to logic and the facts.

Originally Posted by chicano

I must also admit that I do not know all of the consequences or benefits of illegal immigration.

Which is exactly why you are supporting an illogical position that is contrary to the real facts of the situation. If you become more informed as to the damage being done to our nation by illegal immigration, you will change your position. Unless it is you who are closed minded.

Originally Posted by chicano

. . . so closed minded.

It is not closed mindedness, but certainty obtained by knowledge of the issue. A certainty you too will obtain if you honestly examine this issue and learn more about it.

Since you have acknowledged that you don't know all the ramifications of the issue of illegal immigration, and the associated problems with porous borders, you sound like you might be willing to learn as many here, have suggested.

So here are a few links, which, IMO are very helpful, in your effort to get started:

This is the link that W. suggested,
http://www.alipac.us/article1111-thread-1-0.html

North American Union: Deconstructing the U.S. (many of the links contained here, are also posted on ALIPAC.)
http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=F ... ic&t=33954

Social Security Benefits for Illegal Aliens

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=F ... ic&t=33440

This is the "Immigration Gumballs"video. It's a bit outdated, in that the official estimate is that the USA will reach a population of 300 million by Oct. 2006 but it makes it's point.

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=F ... ic&t=31416

I could go on, but if you're really interested in learning, here you go! IMO, all Americans have a responsibility to learn the facts, not just feel the emotion of this issue.

Last and certainly least, here's my story if you're interested. It shows my beliefs, why I'm so serious about this issue, and also shows my experience as a victim of an illegal gang, as well as giving my great-grandfather's immigration experience. Many on this site have posted similar immigration stories.
http://www.alipac.us/ftopict-25749-.html page 2

So, chicano, feel free to start with these links, or if not, use the Google search, home page, top right & search ALIPAC. There's much education to be had on this site!

Good reading!

Chicano,

Even I have got to get a piece of this. I think you have not listened or understood what this place stands for. I can tell you it hinges on one very important event...the moment someone of any country crosses the United States border without permission. While I agree that some of our immigration laws need some reform (I said some, not all), the basic act of just walking into this country make that person a criminal.

Now, using excuses like, A better way of life, Do the jobs that no one else will do, Education, just don't in my mind make it right. In my book they are all excuses unless you have taken the time to fill out the appropriate papaerwork to enter this country legally.

Now, as for the Medicaid issues, they have been addressed and no illegal will be using my tax money any further. This used to be my number 1 pet-peeve, someone illegally coming here and using my tax money free without having to pay that back...well, no longer!

You state that the opinions of this board are not the opinions of the citizens of this country....wrong again. The polls have been constantly taken indicate that well over 65% of the citizens (notice I didn't say illegals or undocumenteds?) are again illegal entry and desire enforcement of the laws already in effect. Those same 65% also want an efforcible border fence with regulated entry points.

I could go on talking about the crime rates, the gang members (yes even those who work hard during the day have been proven to belong to gangs a night...don't act so surprised, it is true and you know it). By percentage, how many of those who are illegal do you suppose don't have a Drivers license, let alone insurance...while they continue to drive their cars, can't read the road signs, cause numerable accidents, or get pulled over and cited, but not show up for thier courts dates? Come on Chicano, your trying to make a case for these people?

While I am at it, lets talk about those who do work here...I work in an area where illegals find work in the contruction of buildings in my area (yes, near DC). Before they start building, we had a nice clean area to park our cars, after the construction started, nothing but trash, cars broken into, cars stolen, etc. 90% of the crews are Hispanic and recently a majority have been found to be using false social security numbers (go figure). So, these hard working people are also allowed to be a burden on others? Come on Chicano, open your eyes man...

Here is what I would fight for, and wouldn't mind any time or effort it would take. I have said this time and again on this cite and stand by it. If someone takes the time to ask permission (that means fill out the paperwork, wait the appropriate time, demonstrate their ability to conform the the laws that govern this country, learn English)...then I will gladly stick up for that person (I actually have in the past and can prove this) and back them no matter what the circumstances are to becoming a citizen of this country.

Now, let me also say that the next time an illegal wants to march down any of my streets and wave a mexican or El Savadorian flag, I will do everything available to me to get them deported. Obviously, they desire to be in their country of origin...then get the heck out of this country!

O.K. I have read some of the posts that you posted. Once again, as in the beggining, we are in the same page when it come to securing the border. We are in the same page when it comes to creating a fool proof system that would allow us to know exactly who is in the country. We all know that many bad things will continue to happen if the border remains wide open. Do something about the border. I agree.

The place where we disagree, and for the most part, the only place where we disagree is what to do with the 8-20 million already here. This is the main problem that is dividing this country. Everyone agrees with securing the border, but one side wants to give illegal immigrants the chance to make things right, after all they have already set roots here. The other side wants deportations, or to set up a hostile environment towards illegal immigrants to the point that they will self deport.

When the immigration issue was the main thing on the news, I remember that the polls showed the vast majority of Americans want immigration reform to secure our borders. But I also remember that the polls showed that about 50% wanted those who had been living here for X amount of years a chance to become a resident or citizen, and about 50% didn't.

I really would like to know more about this topic, but not from Lou Doubbs or this website because as you know it is biased. In my opinion, Congress has just used the illegal immigrants as scapegoats from thier failings. They are pointing at them and say "Yes, go after them! They are the ones destroying your standard of living!" It is not outsourcing. It is not our enourmous cheap import addiction. It is not our cut of money for financial assistance for the middle class. It is not this huge pointless war that is costing us a billion dollars a week. It is them. All of this country's sufferings is because of that guy standing next to the Home Depot with the big sombrero.

Illegal immigration probably is hurting our economy. But when shown in contrast to other of this nation's failings, it is a mouse next to an elephant.

Congress has just added momentum to this movement so we can have someone to blame for their own failings. As I have always said, yes, do something about the border. But I am not blind so I can see what is going on.

For me, if someone has been here for a minimum of 10 years, with no criminal record at all, and proof of a job the entire time, then they would be ok with me to stay.

The rest need to get deported. Anyone with any criminal history gets permanently banned from our country forever (even a misdemeaner).
Also, before they get deported they need to be fined for any medical or welfare services they have received and pay them. If they can't pay then Mexico should pay it. And if they had anchor babies then they should be a responsible parent and take their bambinos with them.

Thats my POV but I'm sure I'm the "softy" of the website.

Illegal immigration probably is hurting our economy. But when shown in contrast to other of this nation's failings, it is a mouse next to an elephant.

However, chicano, the only way to eat an elephant is in small bites, cause you can't eat it in one bite.

BTW, you never responded to my question about adopting the Mexican immigration laws.

Originally Posted by chicano

The place where we disagree, and for the most part, the only place where we disagree is what to do with the 8-20 million already here.

So, you think granting them amnesty, as was done in 1986, will solve the problem?? I'm sorry, but this is yet another illogical position not supported by the facts.

As the 1986 amnesty has shown all too plainly, amnesty for illegal aliens encourages future illegal immigration, rewards law-breaking, costs the taxpayers money, and is overwhelmingly opposed by the majority of Americans. The solution to the problem is given as a link on the ALIPAC homepage and the link has also been posted a couple of times on this thread.